Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

Germany Disbands Army Prussia
Austria Builds Army Trieste

That concludes the surprisingly simple 1902 adjudication. Spring 1902 orders are due at 10pm Central Daylight Time on Thursday 10/18.

John Soper

[Reply]

[Reply]

Hi all,

Firstly a thanks for a great game and my first win . I'm sure we will meet again sooner rather than later. This is my first end of game report so please tell me if I'm doing everything wrong (because I probably am).

My game began, after sorting out which e-mail address should be used, and whether to call myself "Kaiser" with a predictable but steadfast Austria-Germany-Italy alliance. As is often my way, I was won over by the first of the 119 e-mails I received during the game. Although Chris (Austria) and I had to threaten Kevin (Italy) into it, they trusted each other (to my relief) and got off to a good start.
I had also made an alliance with Jordan, (France) against Jerry (England) which got off to a slow start, as his move to BUR worried me.
As far as negotiations with Mike (Russia) went, I merely promised him SWE if he didn't attack Chris. I guessed he wouldn't go through with the deal (correctly) and neither did I. Presumably we both thought the same thing here.

Anyway, by the end of 1901 things weren't looking good for the central 3. Luckily for us, Russia dropped out here (after building). I had already rather naively committed to attack him however, and if either Austria or France had taken a fancy to MUN it would have been theirs.
The war against England had also turned into a guessing game, with his fleets in HEL and SKA and mine in DEN and NtS.
Again I was lucky to out-guess him and end up with NWY (originally just a safety move).
England still looked secure however. I rushed towards Russia mis-ordering in LVN (was it that long ago?) and by the end of 1903 he was out.

I basically got 4 free centres from this, with minimal effort. Very helpful indeed.

I then planned to attack England, but then changed my mind after seeing France's spring moves. He was looking very dangerous with those armies in BEL BUR and MAR. I made a deal with England and with Italy set against him.

I suddenly found myself at 11 centres, without really knowing how I'd done it. Nevertheless, we slowly rolled on in France while my Northern fleets positioned themselves for my final push.

While Chris toiled on against Turkey, with Kevin taking the hits, I grew and grew. As our GM pointed out, I would always gain the centres, while the ones who needed them were left without. If it weren't for the game long battle between Turkey and Austria I might have been turned upon by my allies, but luckily not so.

So by 1905 I was in a dominant position in the West, although a Franco-English alliance might have put a stop to it, I always tried to make it worth their while not to, while they were allied.
So while Austria and turkey swapped centres, I saw the 18 I needed.

In 1906, England, and while I planned to attack in the spring of 1907, I decided not to, when my ally Austria requested I move into TRL and SIL. I was confused, but took this chance, mis-ordering GAL to set myself up for the perfect fall (season that is). I took 6 centres, and that was that. I had gone from confused and with armies in BOH and BUR, and a seemingly invincible R-T alliance, to 11 centres in 1905.
I think I have to thank Russia's drop-out for my fortune. He may have well won otherwise. Apart from that, I think that my pleas for an alliance with Austria, Italy, France, England (and unsuccessfully Turkey, although I tried to supply him with Austria's moves each turn, I got no replies) must have been more convincing that I thought.
I don't think I'll be so lucky, or so trusted next time, or get away with attacking every single other player on the board at some point or another.

Thanks again

James

PS Sorry about SEV Chris, I forgot to change my orders.

[Reply]

[Reply]

Hi all,

Firstly a thanks for a great game and my first win . I'm sure we will meet
again sooner rather than later. This is my first end of game report so
please tell me if I'm doing everything wrong (because I probably am).

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

[Reply]

Paul - thanks first of all for the time put into your remarks. You make a solid case for disconnecting Etchu from South Shinano.

Three topics to address here :

1. freeing Uesugi from the almost mandatory opener of F Echigo - Etchu
2. strengthening Uesugi relative to Hojo and Takeda without imbalancing the H/U/T early balance.
3. lack of challenge to Oda early on

1. Agree that disconnecting Etchu will give Ueusgi much more freedom to choose to head for Noto or Mutsu in 1570. But...

2. There is a certain dynamic here between H/U/T that I am trying to preserve. Takeda currently has a devastating opener against both Hojo (A SSh - Sur, A Kai - Sag) or Uesugi (A SSh - Etc, A Kai - NSh) - causing both of those powers to think twice before jumping at the obvious Juggernaut analogy - an HU alliance. They can beat him, but Takeda can hit either one so hard that Hojo and Uesugi often do better working with him than against him, unless they both agree to forgo early gains in favor of defense. Plus, Hojo is under an equal if not greater threat, with Kai and Sagami adjacent. The Chaos build rules alleviates most all of this tension after the first one - two years, but I am reluctant to give Takeda such a strong reason to choose to attack Hojo over Uesugi in the beginning. I would have to create an equal effect for Hojo. Any suggested ideas on how to do that? (make Musashi or Mino vacant rather than neutral, move SC Hitachi to Shimosa is all I came up with, but don't really like any of those).

3. is this a problem? I thought Oda suffered enough from their central location, such that even with an extremely successful early start, they can still get stonewalled, as we see with David. Also, he benefitted from Lee's (hojo) RL problems that made him mostly withdraw from the game, and Allen's (asakura) decision to leave his SCs open. I give David the credit for his position - he soloed in an earlier version of Sengoku before, he's a very strong player. \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>So I am highly inclined to change the South Shinano - Etchu border as you recommend, I just need to come up with a way to level the playing field for Hojo.  I agree that Takeda is too strong right now, relative to\n both of his neighbours.  I had hoped for a solution that retained Takeda's ability to threaten Etchu, but prevented a guaranteed loss of Echigo if he chose to go north.  That's why I was leaning towards SC Dewa - then the Uesugi opener F Ech - NSJ, A Koz - Dew still yields an SC even if A Dew has to support F NSJ right back to Ech in the fall to cover home turf.  Mutsu would remain key terrain even if it was not an SC.  But I know what you mean about the ability to build on Mutsu being key.  Maybe giving Hojo the Shimosa SC instead of Hitachi would be enough balance.  \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Variant design can be a pain...always trying to balance history with gameplay.  \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cbr\>\u003cbr\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cspan class\u003d\"gmail_quote\"\>On 10/11/07, \u003cb class\u003d\"gmail_sendername\"\>Paul Stuckwisch\u003c/b\> <\u003ca href\u003d\"mailto:pstuckwisch(at)yahoo.com\" target\u003d\"_blank\" onclick\u003d\"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)\"\>pstuckwisch(at)yahoo.com\u003c/a\>> wrote:\u003c/span\> \u003cblockquote class\u003d\"gmail_quote\" style\u003d\"padding-left:1ex;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:#ccc 1px solid\"\> \u003cdiv\>Ben,\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Responses in bold italics below regarding Uesugi comments.\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>\u003cb\>\u003ci\>B H <\u003ca href\u003d\"mailto:screwtape777(at)gmail.com\" target\u003d\"_blank\" onclick\u003d\"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)\"\>screwtape777(at)gmail.com\u003c/a\>>\u003c/i\>\u003c/b\> wrote:\u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cblockquote style\u003d\"padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid\"\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\>and roger as well.  Question - Uesugi used to be the strongest position on the map, with a solo percentage far beyond what any other powers came close to.  Players insisted I rein in the position, so I did.  Now I think I may have gone too far.  Do you think the starting position is overly disadvantaged? \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>",1] ); //-->

So I am highly inclined to change the South Shinano - Etchu border as you recommend, I just need to come up with a way to level the playing field for Hojo. I agree that Takeda is too strong right now, relative to both of his neighbours. I had hoped for a solution that retained Takeda's ability to threaten Etchu, but prevented a guaranteed loss of Echigo if he chose to go north. That's why I was leaning towards SC Dewa - then the Uesugi opener F Ech - NSJ, A Koz - Dew still yields an SC even if A Dew has to support F NSJ right back to Ech in the fall to cover home turf. Mutsu would remain key terrain even if it was not an SC. But I know what you mean about the ability to build on Mutsu being key. Maybe giving Hojo the Shimosa SC instead of Hitachi would be enough balance.

Variant design can be a pain...always trying to balance history with gameplay.



On 10/11/07, Paul Stuckwisch < [quote:36804103f3] Ben,

Responses in bold italics below regarding Uesugi comments.


B H <
[quote:36804103f3] and roger as well. Question - Uesugi used to be the strongest position on the map, with a solo percentage far beyond what any other powers came close to. Players insisted I rein in the position, so I did. Now I think I may have gone too far. Do you think the starting position is overly disadvantaged?

\u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>The biggest concern would be Takeda's ability to force Echigo in the first year unless Uesugi blocks Etchu or forgoes any\n builds.  Fortunately, I did the former in this game, but as long as that is a strong option for Takeda, Uesugi will have limited options at the beginning.  I would say the problem is more Takeda's placement than Uesugi's because I don't know how to give Takeda better alternatives. \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>I'm considering...(in descending order of benefit)\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Changing the starting units to A Echigo, A Kozuke\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>I'd say no.  That would further limit Uesugi options to do otherwise than get in a fight with Takeda.\u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Moving SC Mutsu to Dewa\u003cbr\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>I actually like the Mutsu SC since fleets built there can shift to either theater without tipping the intent.  A Dewa SC would allow growth even while blocking the Takeda attack and letting the fleet head to sea, but\n I don't see that as an improvement over the fleet move to Etchu. \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Redrawing the borders in the far north to where Kozuke and Mutsu touch, but\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Mutsu and Hitachi do not\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>I'm not sure it makes any difference if an army from Kozuke can reach Mutsu in one season as opposed to two, at least early on.  It has the same effect for the opening.  The biggest change would be the separation between Mutsu and Hitachi, which may allow for greater peace between Uesugi and Hojo (though I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing or Takeda's position becomes even more of a problem). \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Redrawing Etchu so it does not border South Shinano\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>That would probably be the best way to limit Takeda's strong opening against Uesugi, and it would probably increase the\n possibility of Takeda-Asakura conflict, which I would think would be a good thing.  (Better would be Takeda-Oda conflict.)  Takeda needs some prospects however. ",1] ); //--> The biggest concern would be Takeda's ability to force Echigo in the first year unless Uesugi blocks Etchu or forgoes any builds. Fortunately, I did the former in this game, but as long as that is a strong option for Takeda, Uesugi will have limited options at the beginning. I would say the problem is more Takeda's placement than Uesugi's because I don't know how to give Takeda better alternatives.

I'm considering...(in descending order of benefit)

Changing the starting units to A Echigo, A Kozuke

I'd say no. That would further limit Uesugi options to do otherwise than get in a fight with Takeda.

Moving SC Mutsu to Dewa

I actually like the Mutsu SC since fleets built there can shift to either theater without tipping the intent. A Dewa SC would allow growth even while blocking the Takeda attack and letting the fleet head to sea, but I don't see that as an improvement over the fleet move to Etchu.

Redrawing the borders in the far north to where Kozuke and Mutsu touch, but
Mutsu and Hitachi do not

I'm not sure it makes any difference if an army from Kozuke can reach Mutsu in one season as opposed to two, at least early on. It has the same effect for the opening. The biggest change would be the separation between Mutsu and Hitachi, which may allow for greater peace between Uesugi and Hojo (though I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing or Takeda's position becomes even more of a problem).

Redrawing Etchu so it does not border South Shinano

That would probably be the best way to limit Takeda's strong opening against Uesugi, and it would probably increase the possibility of Takeda-Asakura conflict, which I would think would be a good thing. (Better would be Takeda-Oda conflict.) Takeda needs some prospects however. \u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Redrawing Musashi so it does not border Echigo\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>The alternative, North Shinano bordering Kozuke, is probably just as bad, if not worse.  Since Takeda would be able to force North Shinano in the spring, Uesugi would be stuck having to either cover both home centers in the fall or hoping to guess correctly while the other unit covers one or the other.  If Musashi isn't dealt with immediately, it actually provides considerable security to each of the three powers around it. \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>...or anything you might have to suggest\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>...or just leave it alone\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>All have disadvantages - I currently favor the\n third.\u003cbr\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>the base question is - do you think that Uesugi has viable options to work with any of his neighbours (Asakura, Takeda, or Hojo) and do each of them have some reasonable incentive to work with him, rather than ally against him?  My concern is that H/U does not happen nearly as much as it use to, because Takeda can royally screw either of the two with a focused attack.  \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>Actually, I did work with each of the powers early in the game.  Asakura was encouraged by Takeda to take Noto against our agreement, but after that we were coordinating until Oda took him apart.  I was working with Hojo after Takeda's initial attack until his general unresponsiveness led me to decide Takeda was the better partner.  And while relations with Takeda have required considerable work, we've obviously been able to work together after the initial fight (and several minor squabbles since). \n The biggest problem I saw in this game was a failure of anyone to challenge Oda early on, but whether that was due to map design or David's skill I cannot say. \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Uesugi Paul\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\>\u003c/blockquote\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003chr size\u003d\"1\"\> Need a vacation? \u003ca href\u003d\"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt\u003d48256/*http://travel.yahoo.com/;_ylc\u003dX3oDMTFhN2hucjlpBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwM1BHNlYwNncm91cHMEc2xrA2VtYWlsLW5jbQ--\" target\u003d\"_blank\" onclick\u003d\"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)\"\>",1] ); //-->

Redrawing Musashi so it does not border Echigo

The alternative, North Shinano bordering Kozuke, is probably just as bad, if not worse. Since Takeda would be able to force North Shinano in the spring, Uesugi would be stuck having to either cover both home centers in the fall or hoping to guess correctly while the other unit covers one or the other. If Musashi isn't dealt with immediately, it actually provides considerable security to each of the three powers around it.

...or anything you might have to suggest
...or just leave it alone

All have disadvantages - I currently favor the third.

the base question is - do you think that Uesugi has viable options to work with any of his neighbours (Asakura, Takeda, or Hojo) and do each of them have some reasonable incentive to work with him, rather than ally against him? My concern is that H/U does not happen nearly as much as it use to, because Takeda can royally screw either of the two with a focused attack.

Actually, I did work with each of the powers early in the game. Asakura was encouraged by Takeda to take Noto against our agreement, but after that we were coordinating until Oda took him apart. I was working with Hojo after Takeda's initial attack until his general unresponsiveness led me to decide Takeda was the better partner. And while relations with Takeda have required considerable work, we've obviously been able to work together after the initial fight (and several minor squabbles since). The biggest problem I saw in this game was a failure of anyone to challenge Oda early on, but whether that was due to map design or David's skill I cannot say.

Uesugi Paul

[Reply]