| dc337 - Autumn & Winter 1906 Results - z93blom (Nov 21, 2010, 12:56 pm) |
[Reply] |
| dc342 ~ Imperial1841 - tfletch33 (Nov 21, 2010, 12:43 pm) |
Hi all,
Just a quick note that I will be traveling starting tonight (Sunday). I will be sure to answer any correspondence to date. And get my orders in. But I don't think I'll be online to answer any last minute requests (maybe from hotel).
Good luck to all!
El Fletch[Reply] |
| DC 338 Fall 06 Results Small note - derekthefeared2 (Nov 20, 2010, 9:54 pm) |
| The austrian army in rumania can retreat to Ukr, Ser, or OTB. [Reply] |
| (DC 326) Gumball - Autumn/Winter 1914 Results - Corrino (Nov 20, 2010, 11:31 am) |
Hi Players,
Good job again with everyone getting their orders in.
AUTUMN - Russia chooses to retreat A Warsaw off the board, rather than take the default retreat to Livonia.
WINTER
Austria:
Build A Budapest
France:
Build F Brest
Italy:
Remove F Clyde
Russia:
Build A Moscow
NEXT DEADLINE: Spring 1915 orders are due Wednesday, November 24, at 8:00 p.m. EST.
Cheers,
Chris[Reply] |
| DC 338 Fall 06 Results - derekthefeared2 (Nov 19, 2010, 10:06 pm) |
Lots happening this season. Borders shift in many places. Italy is also able to hold on for another year. As previously mentioned will be taking a bit of a break before the next season. The next set of orders, for winter 06 will be due the Tuesday after Thanksgiving. That is Tuesday Nov 30th at 3:00 PM Us Eastern time. Build/Disbands needed are listed below. Remember it is never to early to send prelims, just in case.
2 Retreats this year.
The Russian army in Mos can retreat to Ukr or Lvn or OTB
The Austrian Army in Rum can retreat to Ukr or OTB.
Not if both armies retreat to the same location they will be disbanded. Austria this will not give you an extra build since you only have one available home center.
The French fleet in Hol and the Austrian army in Trl but had no retreats so they were disbanded.
Russia note if you retreat is disbanded you will have one less unit to remove. Possibly say which unit you should keep if such an event should be possible based on your moves.
Retreats will be due at the same time as builds unless otherwise requested.
Austria:
Build 1
England:
Build 2
France:
Build 2
Russia:
Remove 2
Austria:
F Aegean Sea - Constantinople
A Albania - Greece
A Ankara - Armenia
A Bulgaria Supports F Aegean Sea - Constantinople
A Rumania - Sevastopol (*Dislodged*)
A Silesia Supports A Warsaw
A Tyrolia - Trieste (*Disbanded*)
A Vienna Supports A Tyrolia - Trieste
A Warsaw Supports A St Petersburg - Moscow
England:
F Denmark - Kiel (*Fails*)
F Helgoland Bight Supports A Norway - Holland
F Liverpool - North Atlantic Ocean
F North Sea Convoys A Norway - Holland
A Norway - Holland
A St Petersburg - Moscow
F London - English Channel (*Fails*)
France:
A Bohemia - Tyrolia
F Brest - English Channel
F Holland - North Sea (*Disbanded*)
F Ionian Sea - Aegean Sea
A Kiel Supports A Munich (*Cut*)
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean Supports F Brest - English Channel
A Munich Supports A Kiel
A Picardy - Belgium
A Piedmont Supports A Bohemia - Tyrolia
F Trieste Hold
A Tuscany - Rome
Italy:
A Venice Supports F Trieste
Russia:
F Baltic Sea - Berlin
F Black Sea Supports A Galicia - Rumania
A Galicia - Rumania
A Moscow - St Petersburg (*Dislodged*)
A Sevastopol - Rumania (*Fails*)[Reply] |
| dc307 ~ Orient Express - sgttodd (Nov 19, 2010, 9:19 pm) |
Indonesia is eliminated.
Thanks to Bruce for playing and sticking it out to
the end.
The deadline for Spring 1917 orders is: Wednesday, November 24 (at)
2359 UTC.
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1916.
India: Build F Bombay.
India: Build A Delhi.
Indonesia: Remove F South Indian Ocean.
Russia: Remove F Central Indian Ocean.
Siberia: Build A Irkutsk.
Siberia: Build F Kamchatka.
Unit locations:
India: A Afghanistan, F Australia, A Bangladesh, F Bombay, F
Borneo, A Delhi, F Egypt, A Kunlun, A Pakistan, F Persian Gulf, F
Sri Lanka, F Sumatra, A Thailand.
Russia: A Arabia, F Barents Sea, F Caspian Sea, A Caucasus, F
Oman, A Sevastopol, F Yemen.
Siberia: F Arctic Sea, F Bay of Bengal, A Cambodia, F East China
Sea, F Eastern Indian Ocean, A Irkutsk, A Iran, F Jawan Sea, F
Kamchatka, A Kazakhstan, A Laos, A Moscow, A Novosibirsk, F South
China Sea, A St. Petersburg, F Thai Sea, A Tibet, A Urals, A
Uzbekistan, A Warsaw.
files: http://mainecav.org/diplomacy[Reply] |
| DC344: Winter 1938 Retreats/Adjustments - charlesf (Nov 19, 2010, 4:33 pm) |
Hi guys,
first order of the day: The BGI three-way draw proposal failed.
Regarding the three remaining minor powers, one might take note of
these all being equidistant to the surrounding major powers' home
bases. I dare say that minor powers who are either relatively
isolated or are located on the faultlines of various spheres of
influence have the best chance to survive.
As the Pr?sident's ship sails into the sunset en route to his
Tahitian exile, I do hope he'll be able to write his memoirs on
those tropical beaches. Matt, perhaps you might wish to submit
your EOG while things are still fresh in your mind? Again, thanks
for serving as interim Pr?sident. We all appreciated you jumping
in at short notice. Should you want to participate in a future
game of mine, your power preferences will be considered first as a
small thanks.
Preliminary orders are due Monday, 6 PM CET. Let's
see what the fourth year in this? struggle for European hegemony
shall hold for us. If the press is to believed, we're in for a
second Gallipoli!
Happy dipping,
Charles
----------
PLAYERS:
??? BRITAIN: Jimmy Ghostine <Jimmy.Ghostine(at)vtmednet.org>
??? FRANCE: Matthew Kelly <kelly058(at)verizon.net>
(Replacement Spring 1937, eliminated Winter 193
??? GERMANY: Dirk Knemeyer <dirk(at)knemeyer.com>
??? ITALY & NAT. SPAIN: Andrew Tanner <feanorsfirstborn(at)gmail.com>
??? POLAND: Daniel Dzikowicz <ddz999cat23(at)yahoo.com>
??? SOVIET UNION & REP. SPAIN: Kyle Overby-Lee <tomjnkns.IL(at)gmail.com>
??? TURKEY: Joao Queiros <jlqueiros3(at)hotmail.com>
HEADLINES:
??? o BRITAIN STRENGTHENS HER HAND
IN THE NEAR-EAST
???
o FRENCH PR?SIDENT CHOOSES TAHITI (FRENCH
POLYNESIA) AS HIS PLACE OF EXILE
???
o GERMAN
ARMS INDUSTRY CANNOT KEEP UP WITH SWIFT PACE OF EXPANSION
???
o REGIA MARINA FINALLY GETS AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER
??? o POLISH ARMY
MELTS AWAY
??? o NAVAL
WHARVES AT ADANA MAKING RECORD PROFITS
??? o CAPITAL
SHIPS CONSIDERED DECADENT AND UNREPUBLICAN, SAYS
SPOKESMAN
ITALIAN PRESS: "With
the return of Austria to German hands, Italy will now work
with her allies to liberate the ancient city of Constantinople
from the rapacious Turks!"
GAME-END PROPOSAL:
The BGI three-way draw proposal fails.
ADJUSTMENTS:
Britain:
Build F Suez
France:
Remove A Lorraine
Remove A Gascony
Germany:
Build A Berlin
Build waived
Build waived
Italy:
Build F Naples
Poland:
Remove A Cracow
Remove A Lithuania
Turkey:
Build F Ankara(sc)
USSR:
Build A Leningrad
Republican_Spain:
Build A Burgos
Greece:
Build F Greece
SUPPLY CENTER OWNERSHIP (Winter
193:
?? Britain(8+1=9): Brest, Edinburgh, Egypt, Liverpool, London, +Morocco+, Netherlands, Norway, Suez.
??? France(2-2=0): -Iraq-, -Marseille-.
??? Germany(7+3=10): +Austria+, Berlin, Czechia, Denmark, +Gdynia+, Hamburg, Munich, Sweden, Switzerland, +Warsaw+.
??? Italy(8+2-1=9): Algiers, -Austria-, +Croatia+, +Izmir+, Milan, Naples, Paris, Rome, Serbia, Tripoli.
??? Poland(6-2=4) Cracow, -Gdynia-, Latvia, Lithuania, Rumania, -Warsaw-.
??? Turkey(6+2-1=7)Ankara, Beirut, Bulgaria, +Iran+, +Iraq+,
Istanbul,
-Izmir-, Stalingrad.
??? USSR(3): Finland, Leningrad, Moscow.
??? Nationalist Spain(1+1-1=1): -Madrid-, +Valencia+.
??? Republican Spain(3+2-1=4):
Burgos, +Madrid+, +Marseille+,
Portugal, -Valencia-.
??? Others(6-3=3): Belgium, -Croatia (Yug.)-, Greece,
Hungary,
- Iran-, -Morocco-.
DEADLINE SCHEDULE: (all orders are
due NLT 6PM CET (GMT+1)...not local time)
??? o Spring 1939 Moves: (22)
24 November
??? o Summer?1939
Retreats: 26 November
??
o
Fall?1939
Moves 1
December
???
o Winter?1939
Retreats/Adjustments:
3 December
RESULTS MAP:[Reply] |
| DC 345: S1903 Adjudication - untitled36 (Nov 19, 2010, 4:32 pm) |
Well, I have to say, we were impressed that we built that fleet without the benefit of opposable thumbs. So I still call our naval action a success!
And we'll retreat to Ska.
John
[Reply] |
| DC 345: S1903 Adjudication - AceRimmer (Nov 19, 2010, 4:11 pm) |
I wish I had something clever to write. But I don???t. Then I thought, oh hey! I can write the whole adjudication with the finger on my right hand shifted over one key on the keyboard, byt tgeb U reakuzed tgat bibidt wiykd wabt ti gi tgriygg tge triybke if decuogerubg tgatm esoecuakkt uf U nade abt ttoiz,
So, we???re stuck with a boring old adjudication. There is one retreat:
The Were-Hamster fleet in North Sea may retreat to Edinburgh, Helgoland Bight, London, Norwegian Sea, Skagerrak, or off the board.
In general, action seems to have centered on the North Sea and St. Petersburg in the north. In the south, there was a general repositioning all around The Boot, including an unused support from Tuscany. Zonotrichia and Dulceria were the very model of immobility (excepting that army traveling to Serbia). Things are beginning to look re-e-e-e-eally grim for The One Who Will Win. It may be time to trot out the blackmail material on your enemies...
The Summer 1903 deadline is Monday at the usual time. Due to the American Thanksgiving holiday, Fall 1903 will not be until Thursday, December 2nd! Please note that and get your prelims in soon anyway.
[By the way, this crew has been absurdly punctual on orders??? it???s an absolute dream to GM when everybody has submitted order eight hours before the deadline. Thanks.]
Spring 1903 Adjudication:
Adaria:
Lvp to Yor
ECH to Nth (*Fails*)
Bel supports ECH to Nth
Spa to Por
Pie to Tyr
TyS to Ion
Tus suports Ven to Rom (*Void*)
Democratic Roman Empire:
A Rom-Ven (*Bounce*)
F Nap-Rom (*Fails*)
Dulceria:
Fleet Constantinople - Black Sea (*Fails*)
Fleet Ankara Supports Fleet Constantinople - Black Sea
Fleet Aegean Sea to Constantinople (*Fails*)
Hembria:
F Denmark - North Sea
F Norwegian Sea - Barents Sea
F Holland Supports F Denmark - North Sea
A Kiel Supports F Holland
A Berlin - Prussia
A Silesia Supports A Berlin ??? Prussia (*Cut*)
Itea:
F Nwy S Hembrian F Den - Nth
A Swe ??? Fin
The One Who Will Win:
A Finland - St Petersburg
F North Sea ??? Norway (*Dislodged*)
A Warsaw ??? Silesia (*Fails*)
Trigspor:
F Wme -> Tun
F Mars -> GoL
A Ven -> Apu
A Tri -> Ven (*Bounce*)
A Gre S Bul
Zonotrichia:
F Sev S F Bla
F Bla hold
A Rum S A Bul
A Bul hold
A Bud - Ser
A Vie hold[Reply] |
| DC 345: S1903 Adjudication (dc345) untitled36 Nov 19, 04:32 pm |
Well, I have to say, we were impressed that we built that fleet without the benefit of opposable thumbs. So I still call our naval action a success!
And we'll retreat to Ska.
John
|
| For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - FuzzyLogic (Nov 19, 2010, 12:05 pm) |
So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:
When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?
Ok, so what would your answer to the ? be?
The manual takes a stab at answering:
Any vague or invalid orders are ignored.
Isn't that pretty clear? Any order is enacted as written, unless it's either vague or invalid, in which case it's ignored.
A Lon-Bel. Vague? No. Invalid? No. So it is enacted as written. If a fleet is in ENG and it orders a convoy, the order may succeed. If not, it'll fail.
A Lon-Mun. Vague? No. Invalid? No. Impossible perhaps, but yet a properly written move order from one province to another which will certainly fail.
A Lon-Neptune. Vague? No. Invalid? Yes. (have no idea where Neptune is on this map). So it is ignored. Unordered unit is considered ordered to Hold.
A Lon-Nor. Vague? Yes. Nor could mean Norway or Norwegian Sea, so it is deemed vague and is ignored. Unordered unit is considered ordered to Hold.
(A GM may consider that one not vague if he considers that an army cannot go to the Norwegian Sea - but vagueness is purely whether it is vague to the GM)
F MAO-Spa. Vague? Yes. Could mean either coast, so ignored, Holds.
F Mar-Spa. Vague? No. Can only go to one coast, so it is not vague. Ordered appropriately.
A Lon-Bol. Vague? Certainly. Bul? Hol? Bel? Any of those would be a slight typo from a valid space, but there is no way to know the intent. Unit Holds.
A Lon-Bra. Vague? Tough one. There is no Bra on the map, but there is Bre, and that seems to make sense, but this would come down to GM interpretation if he considered this vague or not. Personally I think this should be a misorder, as Brest doesn't even contain an 'a' there's no reason to assume this is Bre.[Reply] |
| For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - AceRimmer (Nov 19, 2010, 11:17 am) |
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.
Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that your sense of order and precision compels you to discern between the two.
For my part... what I care about is: does the difference affect how an order is actually adjudicated? If it doesn't affect the adjudication, then to be blunt, I don't care.
So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:
When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?
And just to throw a log on the fire, I deny the premise of the following statement, which is alright, because there is no one correct answer (except that the GM's decision is final!):
"you can take a blank board, put a single unit on Lon and say "Is A Lon-Bel valid, legally written move order" and the answer is yes or no, not "it depends where other units are"
Adam[Reply] |
| For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm |
So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:
When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?
Ok, so what would your answer to the ? be?
The manual takes a stab at answering:
Any vague or invalid orders are ignored.
Isn't that pretty clear? Any order is enacted as written, unless it's either vague or invalid, in which case it's ignored.
A Lon-Bel. Vague? No. Invalid? No. So it is enacted as written. If a fleet is in ENG and it orders a convoy, the order may succeed. If not, it'll fail.
A Lon-Mun. Vague? No. Invalid? No. Impossible perhaps, but yet a properly written move order from one province to another which will certainly fail.
A Lon-Neptune. Vague? No. Invalid? Yes. (have no idea where Neptune is on this map). So it is ignored. Unordered unit is considered ordered to Hold.
A Lon-Nor. Vague? Yes. Nor could mean Norway or Norwegian Sea, so it is deemed vague and is ignored. Unordered unit is considered ordered to Hold.
(A GM may consider that one not vague if he considers that an army cannot go to the Norwegian Sea - but vagueness is purely whether it is vague to the GM)
F MAO-Spa. Vague? Yes. Could mean either coast, so ignored, Holds.
F Mar-Spa. Vague? No. Can only go to one coast, so it is not vague. Ordered appropriately.
A Lon-Bol. Vague? Certainly. Bul? Hol? Bel? Any of those would be a slight typo from a valid space, but there is no way to know the intent. Unit Holds.
A Lon-Bra. Vague? Tough one. There is no Bra on the map, but there is Bre, and that seems to make sense, but this would come down to GM interpretation if he considered this vague or not. Personally I think this should be a misorder, as Brest doesn't even contain an 'a' there's no reason to assume this is Bre. |
| DC 341: S1905 Much About Nothing - AceRimmer (Nov 19, 2010, 10:13 am) |
No retreats. No
disbands. Fall 1905 is next. On account of American Thanksgiving next
Thursday, we have a long deadline until Wednesday, December 1 at 10:00 CST
(16:00 GMT). Still, it???s a good idea to
submit prelims now.
It was a good year for ferry boat captains. If you convoyed, you arrived safely at your
destination. Elsewhere, it was not such
a good year. On turns like this, where
almost every unit holds, supports, or bounces/fails, I like to do a little
thing I call The Abbreviated Adjudication.
In it, I list only the units that moved (don???t worry, the full
adjudication follows); everything else stays put!
Germany: A Den-Nth-Yor
Russia: A Rum-Bla-Ank
Russia: A War-Gal
Turkey: A Con-Smy
T-T-T-That???s all folks.
S1905 Adjudication:
Austria:
F VEN -> ADR (*Bounce*)
A TRI -> VEN (*Fails*)
England:
Fleet edi supports French fleet into nwg.
Fleet Liverpool hold
A lon hold
France:
F Eng Channel -> North Sea (*Fails*)
F North Atlantic -> Norwegian Sea (*Bounce*)
A Belgium -> Holland (*Bounce*)
A Picardy -> Belgium (*Fails*)
A Burgundy -> Ruhr (*Fails*)
A Marseilles holds
Germany:
A Den - Yor
F NTH C A Den - Yor
F SKA S F NTH
A Kie - Hol (*Bounce*)
A Ruh S A Kie ??? Hol (*Cut*)
A Mun S A Ruh
Italy:
F Greece Supports F Tyrrhenian Sea - Ionian Sea (*Fails*)
F Ionian Sea - Adriatic Sea (*Bounce*)
A Piedmont Hold
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Ionian Sea (*Fails*)
A Vienna ??? Budapest (*Bounce*)
Russia:
A Armenia Supports A Rumania - Ankara
F Barents Sea - Norwegian Sea (*Bounce*)
F Black Sea Convoys A Rumania - Ankara
F Norway Supports F Barents Sea - Norwegian Sea
A Rumania - Ankara
A Serbia ??? Budapest (*Bounce*)
A St Petersburg Supports F Norway
A Warsaw - Galicia
Turkey:
Bulgaria to Black Sea (*Fails*)
Constantinople to Smyrna
East Med support Con to Smyrna
Aegean support Con to Smyrna[Reply] |
| For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - FuzzyLogic (Nov 19, 2010, 8:48 am) |
We're in agreement here, no? I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky. 
Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.
Lon-Bel is valid even if you have your own army in Bel, cuz you could be ordering Bel-Ruh. If Bel-Ruh fails, then Lon-Bel will fail. But it was still a move order, and so an order of Wal S Lon would fail.
The manual does go to the extent to say that ordering a unit into another unit of yours does NOT cut the support. Therefore it is clearly legal to order a move that you absolutely know is impossible to succeed. (Bel-Ruh and Ruh S Mun) Bel-Ruh is still a move order, and Ruh support of Mun is not cut because of the "cannot cut your own support rule". It doesn't say you can't order the movment, just that the support is not cut.
Point is, ordering moves that are "impossible to have the movement succeed" are definitely not disallowed, therefore the impossibility of actual movement resulting from a move order does not rule the order invalid and revert it to Unordered / Hold.
If you order a unit to move, from one province to another, then you have ordered it to move.
If you order Par-Neptune, The GM should look and see if Neptune is a space in this variant. Maybe it is in the "Milky Way" variant. If he can't find a space by that name that is unambiguous (to the GM) then the entire order is ruled invalid and the unit is treated as if unordered.
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal?
Per above. Par-Neptune would be an invalid order. There is no province named Neptune.
I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid
Not sure why this example. A GM will skip over flavor text in analyzing orders, including things like "dear GM please accept these orders" - that is not an order in the game sense, it is normal discussion. Orders for anything other than your own units are ignored.
Therefore, it oughtn't depend on even where even the single unit is.
In determining if AN order is valid, sure, it doesn't matter. We can look and say "Is an order of F Con-Bul/ec" a valid way to order Con to the east coast of Bul. Yes it is. But we're talking about the more specific scenario of "what are valid orders for this unit" (which does happen to be somewhere). So IF I have an army in London, what are valid orders for it. That is what we're discussing.
The rest of your post is discussing semantics / word games, and we're not really concerned w the concept of GM trickery here. Like "Yesterday I took my Bell to London for a cleaning." and later alleging to the GM you intended Bel to Lon and the presence of other words before and after it were irrelevant. That's another discussion.
The question of this topic, is "Is A Lon-Bel" a move order in all cases, and I still (I think, agree w you) that it is. So be it that if there is no fleet nearby to convoy it, it is very likely to fail.
The order is fine, it just may not work, whether for that turn (Bel to Lon but no convoy) or forever (Bel to Par).
I think we're in agreement here.
[Reply] |
| For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question - Blueraider0 (Nov 19, 2010, 1:49 am) |
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal? I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid, But even then, you say "you can take a blank board, put a single unit on Lon and say "Is A Lon-Bel valid, legally written move order" and the answer is yes or no, not "it depends where other units are"." Therefore, it oughtn't depend on even where even the single unit is. If Lon to Bel is a valid order whether a convoy is possible or not, Lon to Bel should be valid whether there is a unit in Lon or not. Lon to Bel is a valid order - but there might not be a unit in London to move (or, a unit of a different Power). The written order is always going to be valid, even if it cannot be implemented.
But I suppose my definition of a valid move order should be stated. Forgive me if I've already used this analogy. I can write 2+2=5. It is a legitimate thing to write. All those symbols exist, and we all understand what is happening. That said, suspending any 1984 references, it is a false statement. Similarly, I can SAY my mother was Harriet Tubman, but she is not. But I can construct the sentence. It has no necessary root in reality, and requires none. Even dividing by zero CAN be written, even if it cannot be done. When something is written, it must be evaluated based on accepted definitions. Then the statement can be verified against known facts. 2+2=5 is false. But are Frxhhz more likely to eat a marshmallow than a Tredkfl? It's an unanswerable question, because two of the terms are undefined. It is not true or false, it's nonsensical.
A move order is X to Y. Perhaps X --> Y or X moves to Y. It is one province, some symbol or word indicating movement, and another province. The first province is the origin, the second the destination. Neptune to G4 is a valid move order, even though it makes absolutely no sense. It cannot be translated onto the board, but the order is not invalid. The best you could do is call it irrelevant.
Even moves traditionally understood as illegal If I am England, it is acceptable for the GM to assume I am ordering my own units. Therefore if I order a different power's unit, the GM has two options. I either mistakenly thought it was mine or am cunningly attempting to use it. In the first case, the order (let's say, Par to Bur) is valid, but irrelevant, because there is no English unit in Par. In the second, the order is irrelevant because I simply cannot under any circumstance order an opponent's unit. But the order is valid anyway, even if my intention was a direct violation of the rules. If I say "FRENCH Par to Bur," is that illegal? It's illegal for the MOVE to happen, but what about the order? That depends on your interpretation of the rule about ordering other units (I actually can't find it in the rulebook. Maybe it's not there, because the whole idea is so clearly against the rules. Battleship doesn't specify you can't yell Fire and then as your opponent panics you look at where there ships are....
The only move I'd say is definitely illegal is a move to Switzerland. Unlike Neptune or G4 or Mushroom Kingdom, the rules explicitly state Switzerland cannot be occupied. Actually, even then MOVING to Switzerland is not forbidden, just occupying it. So the move is only illegal if it would cause the player to occupy it. If two players move to Switzerland and bounce, technically Switzerland remained empty because of the usual game mechanics, not because of any special rules.
Another thought, a Power cannot dislodge or support the dislodgement of its own unit. Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units. Let's say Bel to Ruh and Hol supports Lon to Bel and ECH convoys Lon to Bel, all owned by the same Power. Mun goes to Ruh and bounces Bel. Lon to Bel is now illegal, even if Pic and Bur also supported the move.
So except for situations explicitly stated in the rules, I see no reason to declare any moves illegal, and I find the phrase invalid to be misleading. The order is fine, it just may not work, whether for that turn (Bel to Lon but no convoy) or forever (Bel to Par).[Reply] |
| For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 08:48 am |
We're in agreement here, no? I can't quite tell these examples are so wacky.
Therefore Lon to Bel might be illegal because of other units.
Lon-Bel is valid even if you have your own army in Bel, cuz you could be ordering Bel-Ruh. If Bel-Ruh fails, then Lon-Bel will fail. But it was still a move order, and so an order of Wal S Lon would fail.
The manual does go to the extent to say that ordering a unit into another unit of yours does NOT cut the support. Therefore it is clearly legal to order a move that you absolutely know is impossible to succeed. (Bel-Ruh and Ruh S Mun) Bel-Ruh is still a move order, and Ruh support of Mun is not cut because of the "cannot cut your own support rule". It doesn't say you can't order the movment, just that the support is not cut.
Point is, ordering moves that are "impossible to have the movement succeed" are definitely not disallowed, therefore the impossibility of actual movement resulting from a move order does not rule the order invalid and revert it to Unordered / Hold.
If you order a unit to move, from one province to another, then you have ordered it to move.
If you order Par-Neptune, The GM should look and see if Neptune is a space in this variant. Maybe it is in the "Milky Way" variant. If he can't find a space by that name that is unambiguous (to the GM) then the entire order is ruled invalid and the unit is treated as if unordered.
If that's the case, when would an order ever be invalid or illegal?
Per above. Par-Neptune would be an invalid order. There is no province named Neptune.
I suppose attempting to move a unit that is not one's own, or ordering a unit that does not exist is invalid
Not sure why this example. A GM will skip over flavor text in analyzing orders, including things like "dear GM please accept these orders" - that is not an order in the game sense, it is normal discussion. Orders for anything other than your own units are ignored.
Therefore, it oughtn't depend on even where even the single unit is.
In determining if AN order is valid, sure, it doesn't matter. We can look and say "Is an order of F Con-Bul/ec" a valid way to order Con to the east coast of Bul. Yes it is. But we're talking about the more specific scenario of "what are valid orders for this unit" (which does happen to be somewhere). So IF I have an army in London, what are valid orders for it. That is what we're discussing.
The rest of your post is discussing semantics / word games, and we're not really concerned w the concept of GM trickery here. Like "Yesterday I took my Bell to London for a cleaning." and later alleging to the GM you intended Bel to Lon and the presence of other words before and after it were irrelevant. That's another discussion.
The question of this topic, is "Is A Lon-Bel" a move order in all cases, and I still (I think, agree w you) that it is. So be it that if there is no fleet nearby to convoy it, it is very likely to fail.
The order is fine, it just may not work, whether for that turn (Bel to Lon but no convoy) or forever (Bel to Par).
I think we're in agreement here.
|
| For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) AceRimmer Nov 19, 11:17 am |
Maslow, I'm going to agree with poobaloo here: your post is discussing semantics / word games.
Chiefly, you seem to be trying to define a difference between invalid and illegal. I'm guessing that your sense of order and precision compels you to discern between the two.
For my part... what I care about is: does the difference affect how an order is actually adjudicated? If it doesn't affect the adjudication, then to be blunt, I don't care.
So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:
When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?
And just to throw a log on the fire, I deny the premise of the following statement, which is alright, because there is no one correct answer (except that the GM's decision is final!):
"you can take a blank board, put a single unit on Lon and say "Is A Lon-Bel valid, legally written move order" and the answer is yes or no, not "it depends where other units are"
Adam |
| For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Community) FuzzyLogic Nov 19, 12:05 pm |
So, perhaps, I should restate the issue at hand as I see it:
When should a GM declare that a unit's order is unadjudicable and therefore defaults to 'Unit Holds'?
Ok, so what would your answer to the ? be?
The manual takes a stab at answering:
Any vague or invalid orders are ignored.
Isn't that pretty clear? Any order is enacted as written, unless it's either vague or invalid, in which case it's ignored.
A Lon-Bel. Vague? No. Invalid? No. So it is enacted as written. If a fleet is in ENG and it orders a convoy, the order may succeed. If not, it'll fail.
A Lon-Mun. Vague? No. Invalid? No. Impossible perhaps, but yet a properly written move order from one province to another which will certainly fail.
A Lon-Neptune. Vague? No. Invalid? Yes. (have no idea where Neptune is on this map). So it is ignored. Unordered unit is considered ordered to Hold.
A Lon-Nor. Vague? Yes. Nor could mean Norway or Norwegian Sea, so it is deemed vague and is ignored. Unordered unit is considered ordered to Hold.
(A GM may consider that one not vague if he considers that an army cannot go to the Norwegian Sea - but vagueness is purely whether it is vague to the GM)
F MAO-Spa. Vague? Yes. Could mean either coast, so ignored, Holds.
F Mar-Spa. Vague? No. Can only go to one coast, so it is not vague. Ordered appropriately.
A Lon-Bol. Vague? Certainly. Bul? Hol? Bel? Any of those would be a slight typo from a valid space, but there is no way to know the intent. Unit Holds.
A Lon-Bra. Vague? Tough one. There is no Bra on the map, but there is Bre, and that seems to make sense, but this would come down to GM interpretation if he considered this vague or not. Personally I think this should be a misorder, as Brest doesn't even contain an 'a' there's no reason to assume this is Bre. |
| (DC 326) Gumball - Fall 1914 Results - Corrino (Nov 18, 2010, 9:09 pm) |
Hi Gumballers,
It's a fun time in the old town tonight! Plenty of interesting maneuvers, a gamble or two, and a mighty naval conflict with a surprisingly benign result. Let's go straight to the highlights.
. The Black Sea has turned green. "Look at the pretty dots I can see from here!" wired back the Italian Commodore as they cruised uncontested into the warm waters.
. On the other side of Europe, the naval action was much more heated. The German fleet in MAO tried to make for northern waters, but was bounced back by the Italians in Clyde. With Italy attacking that MAO fleet from the rear, I thought for a moment that he would be dislodged into the French port of Brest. But then, at the last minute, French fleets in Portugal and
English Channel teamed up to attack MAO, too. That made it two-against-two, a bounce! And because of that bounce, the single German fleet is allowed to remain. It's called a "beleaguered unit" in the rules. You can look it up!
Meanwhile, there was plenty of action in the continent's interior, as well.
. Austrian forces outguessed the White Army and captured Warsaw, BUT
. The German forces succeeded in breaking through the Austrian lines into Galicia, BUT
. The Russians occupied St. Pete, MEANING
. A net movement of one dot from Germany to Austria. Good thing for the Archduke. He's going to have his hands full now that his line has been split in twain.
Finally, a tip of the old shako to the merry prankster in Berlin who swapped out the Kaiser's maps for the Western front. We don't know his name but we recognize his work. Why else would German units in Belgium, Munich and
Irish Sea go completely unordered, while phantom units in Burgundy and Liverpool are sent on phantom missions? Very funny, Herr Jokemeister. Now I think you better run and hide before the Kaiser catches up with you.
RETREATS: Russian army Warsaw is auto-retreated to Livonia, its only legal move due to the bounce in Moscow. However, Russia may choose to retreat off the board instead. Should he so choose, he would then be eligible to build a new unit in Moscow during the Winter.
ADJUSTMENTS: Austria Builds 1. France Builds 1. Italy Removes 1. Russia Builds 1 only if A Warsaw is retreated OTB. Germany is down 1 SC, but does not need to remove because of the fleet in Clyde being destroyed in the Spring. (Full details of SC ownership can be found below.)
DEADLINE: Adjustments are due Saturday morning at 9:00 a.m. EST. That's 35 hours from now. If everyone
submits early, I'll post results tomorrow night.
*** NOTE: I don't want to post separate retreat/build phases. If it matters to you whether or not Russia chooses to disband instead of retreating, please submit conditional adjustment orders. e.g. If Russia retreats OTB, build F Iceland. Else, Build A Sicily.
You guys are doing great, by the way. This has been a very interesting game for the last 7 or 8 years. Just when it looked like Germany was going to run away with it, you've pulled him back to the pack. Keep up the good work!
Cheers,
Chris
Orders as received and resolved. Let me know if I goofed anything up, and I'll endeavor to make amends.
============================================
Austria:
A Galicia - Warsaw
A Serbia - Rumania (*Bounce*)
A Tyrolia Supports A Vienna - Bohemia
A Ukraine Supports A Galicia - Warsaw
F Venice Hold
A
Vienna - Bohemia
England:
A Edinburgh Supports F Clyde (*Ordered to Move*)
A Liverpool - Wales
France:
F English Channel Supports F Portugal - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Gascony Supports F Spain(sc)
A Marseilles Supports F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Brest (*Fails*)
F Portugal - Mid-Atlantic Ocean (*Bounce*)
F Spain(sc) Supports F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Western Mediterranean (*Void*)
Germany:
A Belgium, no move received
A Berlin - Prussia
A Bohemia - Galicia
A Burgundy - Ruhr (*Invalid - no such unit*)
F Irish Sea, no move received
F Liverpool - English Channel (*Invalid - no such unit*)
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - North Atlantic Ocean (*Bounce*)
A Munich, no move received
F Norwegian Sea - Norway
A Silesia Supports A Bohemia - Galicia
Italy:
F Aegean Sea - Greece
A Bulgaria - Constantinople
F Clyde - North Atlantic Ocean (*Bounce*)
F Constantinople - Black Sea
F Gulf of Lyon
- Spain(sc) (*Fails*)
F North Africa - Mid-Atlantic Ocean (*Bounce*)
F Smyrna Supports A Bulgaria - Constantinople (*Cut*)
F Western Mediterranean Supports F North Africa - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
Russia:
A Sevastopol - Rumania (*Bounce*)
A St Petersburg - Moscow (*Bounce*)
A Warsaw - Moscow (*Dislodged*)
Turkey:
A Ankara - Smyrna (*Fails*)
===========================================
Ownership:
Austria (7): Budapest, Rumania, Serbia, Trieste, Venice, Vienna, Warsaw.
England (2): Edinburgh, Liverpool.
France (6): Brest, London, Marseilles, Paris, Portugal, Spain.
Germany (: Belgium, Berlin, Denmark, Holland, Kiel, Munich, Norway, Sweden.
Italy (7): Bulgaria, Constantinople, Greece, Naples, Rome, Smyrna, Tunis.
Russia (3): Moscow, Sevastopol, St Petersburg.
Turkey (1):
Ankara.
Adjustments:
Austria: Supp 7 Unit 6 Build 1
England: Supp 2 Unit 2 Build 0
France: Supp 6 Unit 5 Build 1
Germany: Supp 8 Unit 8 Build 0
Italy: Supp 7 Unit 8 Remove 1
Russia: Supp 3 Unit 3 Build 0 ... or build 1 if A Warsaw retreats OTB instead of to Livonia
Turkey: Supp 1 Unit 1 Build 0[Reply] |
| DC 345: Deadline Tomorrow - AceRimmer (Nov 18, 2010, 9:27 am) |
| Deadline tomorrow at 3:00 CST (21:00 GMT). Spring 1904! [Reply] |
| DC 341: Deadline tomorrow - AceRimmer (Nov 18, 2010, 9:22 am) |
| Deadline is tomorrow, Friday the 19th, at 10:00 CST (16:00 GMT). [Reply] |
| dc339 w216bc builds! - FuzzyLogic (Nov 18, 2010, 9:15 am) |
Hard to screw up, builds go smoothly. Citizens cheer across the land.
Carthage: Remove F Syrtis Major
Egypt: Build A Thebes
Macedonia: Build F Sparta
Persia: Build F Attaleia
Scythia: Remove F Bithynia
NEXT: Spring 215, due next Wed 11/24 3pm Central!
(day before Thanksgiving, to get the turn in before the holidays)
[Reply] |
| dc339 w216bc builds! (dc339) FuzzyLogic Nov 22, 09:52 pm |
Hey folks, since a couple have mentioned the holiday week, I’m gonna push this one back to Monday. That’s November 29, 3pm Central. Don’t forget those Thanksgiving offerings! Turkey is good, vodka better. At least when you hang out w my family it helps…
-him
From: Michael Sims
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:15 AM
To: coebq(at)yahoo.com; hancockfc(at)yahoo.com; justin(at)darkenedpath.com; mjn82(at)yahoo.com; ross826(at)gmail.com; mlb767(at)aim.com; clockheardt(at)yahoo.com; fredrik(at)familjenblom.se
Cc: dc339
Subject: dc339 w216bc builds!
Hard to screw up, builds go smoothly. Citizens cheer across the land.
Carthage: Remove F Syrtis Major
Egypt: Build A Thebes
Macedonia: Build F Sparta
Persia: Build F Attaleia
Scythia: Remove F Bithynia
NEXT: Spring 215, due next Wed 11/24 3pm Central!
(day before Thanksgiving, to get the turn in before the holidays)
|
| dc325 Imterra - W09 Northern Front Abandonment - garry.bledsoe (Nov 17, 2010, 10:07 pm) |
The EGP fails. Let's be clear why - NOT because of the public denial by Austria. It fails because SEVERAL did not vote yea or nea in their orders and thus they count as a NEA. PLEASE remember that you MUST vote in your orders regardless of your public vote AND the private vote is the vote of record. I only lay this out SO clearly because it HAS been an issue in games that I have GM'd in the past.
Bear this in mind because we have a new EGP - a F/E/A 3-way draw. Please vote for it in your next set of orders.
Russia removes all its armies on the northern front leaving just a F in BLA, a F in Smy and an A in Turkey
Austria brings two new armies online while England and France opt for F's only
We move to Spring 1910. Let's set that deadline as next Wednesday the 24th at 6pm CST. This is a slight delay in our deadline.
Garry
From: kielmarch(at)hotmail.com
To: timfuhrmeister(at)yahoo.com; dreamsynergy(at)hotmail.com; johnb229(at)gmail.com; kodiplomacy(at)gmail.com; sean_o_donnell(at)hotmail.com; loganlaw299(at)aol.com; mlb767(at)aim.com; dc325(at)diplomaticcorp.com
Subject: dc325 Imterra - F09 Bye Bye Ben
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:11:55 -0500
As Expected, Italy Has Been Eliminated
We Have an EGP!!!
Proposed E/F 2-way Draw
Russia Carved Up - Austria and England Benefit; Russia Sets Up Camp in Turkey
Well, the game is officially moving into another phase. How fitting that it sees its first EGP. Note that all remaining players must vote YES for the proposal or it fails. A failure to vote with orders will be counted as a NO.
We require no retreats but we do have adjustments needed for our Winter turn:
Austria - build 2
England - build 3
France - build 1
Russia - remove 4
Let's have Winter adjustments in by Wednesday this week at 6pm CST and have our Spring10 turn for next Monday the 22nd at 6pm CST if needed. Since all remaining players have orders due with Winter, we will vote on the EGP with Winter orders!
Lord of the March
Austria:
A Budapest - Rumania
A Bulgaria Supports F Constantinople
F Constantinople Supports F Greece - Aegean Sea (*Cut*)
A Serbia Supports A Budapest - Rumania
A Venice - Tyrolia (*Bounce*)
A Vienna - Tyrolia (*Bounce*)
England:
F Baltic Sea Convoys A Denmark - Berlin
A Denmark - Berlin
F Helgoland Bight - Kiel
F Holland Supports F Helgoland Bight - Kiel
A Livonia Supports A Silesia - Warsaw
F North Sea Hold
A Prussia Supports A Silesia - Warsaw
A Silesia - Warsaw
A St Petersburg - Moscow
France:
A Burgundy - Belgium
F Greece - Aegean Sea
A Munich Supports A Silesia (*Ordered to Move*)
F Naples - Ionian Sea
A Picardy Supports A Burgundy - Belgium
A Rome - Naples (*Bounce*)
A Ruhr Supports A Munich
F Spain(sc) Hold
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Naples (*Bounce*)
F Western Mediterranean Hold
Italy:
A Apulia - Rome (*Fails*)
Russia:
A Armenia - Ankara
F Black Sea Supports F Smyrna - Constantinople
A Bohemia Supports A Warsaw - Galicia
A Moscow - Sevastopol
F Smyrna - Constantinople (*Fails*)
A Ukraine Supports A Warsaw - Galicia
A Warsaw - Galicia[Reply] |
| DC 338 Fall 06 Reminder - derekthefeared2 (Nov 17, 2010, 9:56 pm) |
| Reminder, fall 06 orders are due this Friday. After that we will have a slightly longer turn as some players will be away on vacation. [Reply] |
| DC 347, Winter 1901 - alwayshunted (Nov 17, 2010, 4:45 pm) |
Hey gang, Aloha!
Sorry for the delay, but I can't find a computer to get realpolitik on.... I will try to find a more "friendly" internet cafe, maybe on Friday.
Hang in there. Talk soon.
Warren
[Reply] |
| DC 333, Autumn 1906 - alwayshunted (Nov 17, 2010, 4:27 pm) |
Aloha everybody. Sorry I'm a bit slow these days.... and I have to apologize for the next week or so as well. I'll be home around the 24th.
Anyhow, I don't have realpolitik here on these computers, but I can tell you what happened for autumn. England retreats North Sea to English Channel, France retreats Venice to Piedmont. I can't provide you with a map at the moment, but I'll try again at some point to find a better computer and get a map generated.
Sooooo.... figure out your adjustments and send them to me in the next couple of days.... uhhh, what day is it? Okay, Wednesday... I'll make winter due on Friday the 19th, 17:00, MST.
Thanks for your patience!
Warren[Reply] |
| dc337 - Autumn & Winter 1906 Results - z93blom (Nov 17, 2010, 3:56 pm) |
[Reply] |
| dc337 - Autumn & Winter 1906 Results (dc337) z93blom Nov 21, 12:56 pm |
|
| dc330: Draw proposals - dknemeyer (Nov 17, 2010, 7:43 am) |
Hi Everyone,
We have two draw proposals to consider, votes due with your Fall 1945 orders:
3-way IPT
5-way BIPST (DIAS)
Thanks,
Dirk[Reply] |
| Fall 1902 Results, Winter 1902 Builds Due Monday M... - bpynnonen (Nov 17, 2010, 12:30 am) |
Fall 1902 Results
Austria-Hungary:
F. Aeg - Gre
A. Ser. S. A. Tri
A. Tri. S. A. Vie
A. Vie. S. A. Tri
England:
F Edinburgh - Norwegian Sea
A London Hold
F North Sea Supports F English Channel - Belgium
F Skagerrak - Denmark
France:
English Channel to Belgium.
Picardy supports Eng-Bel
Mars-Burg
Paris sup Mars-Burg
Spain-GOL
Russia:
F StP - Nwy
F Swe S F StP - Nwy
F Sev - Bla
A Ukr - Ser (No units in Ukr, Ukr-Ser non-adjacent)
A Gal - Bud
A Boh - Vie
Italy:
A Tyrolia - Trieste
A Venice S A Tyrolia - Trieste
A Apulia - Albania
F Ionian Sea C A Apulia - Albania
F Tunis S F Ionian Sea
Turkey:
NMR
Germany:
NMR
Winter 1902 Builds:
Russia - 3
Italy - Negative 1
France - 1
England - Negative 1
I'm making the deadline for the Winter 1902 builds due Monday midnight. If any of you guys have a problem with this, feel free to email me. I'm doing this because two of the players told me ahead of time that they're going to have trouble emailing in the near future, and since 2 players NMR'ed, I figured the game is worth delaying if 2 out of the 5 players who just submitted orders need a longer period. Again, if you have a problem with this, send me an email and I will consider changing it. During the long build period, refrain from consulting with other players about your placement. I can't stop you, but we're on the honor system here, even in DIP. If you have any other issues with this release, please email me.
Thanks,
Blake[Reply] |
