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Are you serious??

The rule ALSO says:

The GM will accept all reasonable abbreviations. However if an order is unclear and not clarified by the deadline, the order will be declared void and the unit will hold. Abbreviations that could be applied to more than one space on the map (such as NOR and LIV) should be avoided. EG Lvp or Liverpool for Liverpool and Lvn or Livonia or Livonia.

"The GM will accept all reasonable abbreviations". That is blatantly clear!

Is this a "reasonable abbreviation"? Well it's on the map, it looks like HST to me. I would say it counts as "reasonable", as in it can be reasoned that that space would be HST by the writing on the map.

Is the order unclear? Well could HST be anything else on the map? Let's look at the map. Nope... there it is. Right there, one space. Even labeled HST (or is it MST? I cant tell)

If you're going to suggest we follow the rules, then I think there is absolutely no grounded case to say HST should fail!

I am not trying to pressure anyone. Tho you seem to think we should not even discuss it like gentlemen. Other players were even joking about it. I would say there is no pressure, just bewilderment as to why the above rule is not being applied, when it seems very appropriate that HST is not ambiguous, can not be mistaken for anywhere else, and it's LABELED ON THE MAP as such, in such a bad font, that one cant possibly tell if it's HST or MST. And the rules of the game clearly state The GM will accept all reasonable abbreviations. So it fails???

Come on Trout you usually stand up for following the rules... this is a weird position for you to take.

-mike



From: Former Trout [mailto:former.trout(at)gmail.com ([email]former.trout(at)gmail.com[/email])]

Sent: Mon 2/9/2009 3:34 PM

To: Michael Sims
Cc: Rob Ackerley; vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com ([email]vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com[/email]); Jason 4747; 158NewArchersJason Longbow; 209Australia Nick Cherrier; 209China (tubby) Jacob Roberts; DC101tGMStephen Lytton; dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])
Subject: Re: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD





I'll ignore the inflammatory stuff in this email and just focus on the pertinent detail.

Michael uses the default DC house rules, according to the game page. Point 4 of those HRs - (which YOU helped write might I add) state:


As always in all DC games, the GM of the game has the final say and final decision on all matters relating to the game, whether they are covered in the rules or not


What I think of the decision, or what you think of the decision is frankly irrelevent. Michael made the call, based on player questions reconsidered it, and then kept with the original ruling.


For the record, I would have had no problem bouncing in MST if Michael had reversed his decision. BUT - I DO have a problem with a player attempting to loudly pressure the GM into doing so. Especially when that player knows better.


Trout




On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Michael Sims <mike(at)southwall.com ([email]mike(at)southwall.com[/email])> wrote:

[quote:da3e25679a] Point? That a player wrote an order, using the letters printed on the map, which as best I can tell by actually looking at the map the M and the H are indistinguishable, yet it was misordered. The order was not ambiguous - if there was another space nearby that was HST, then MST and HST need to be different. But given that's how it's labeled, I see no reason not to accept it. But I guess there's no point, and it's in your best interest to see to it that nothing is changed, but I did want to voice that it was a challengeable ruling, and so I challenged it. Er seconded Jason's challenge rather. Am I not entitled to challenge a ruling? Michael has made his statement, doesnt mean I cant point out that a player used the abbreviation printed on the map, and that was misordered cuz apparently we're supposed to make up our own abbreviation based on the textual wording which only exists on some of the provinces. Because you did get it right, I'll give you a pat on the back for that. I never suggested invalidating your order.


From: Former Trout [mailto:former.trout(at)gmail.com ([email]former.trout(at)gmail.com[/email])]

Sent: Mon 2/9/2009 3:01 PM
To: Michael Sims
Cc: Rob Ackerley; vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com ([email]vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com[/email]); Jason 4747; 158NewArchersJason Longbow; 209Australia Nick Cherrier; 209China (tubby) Jacob Roberts; DC101tGMStephen Lytton; dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])

Subject: Re: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD





I don't know if I buy that argument. I used the same map that the GM sent out and ordered to the same spot. Somehow I managed to get the correct abbreviation...

What exactly is the point of all of this, Mike? Again - I don't know if I agree with the call made by the GM, but it is definitely HIS call to make...


T.

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Michael Sims <mike(at)southwall.com ([email]mike(at)southwall.com[/email])> wrote:
[quote:da3e25679a] I know you were, and it was amusing, and it does exemplify the fact that using an unrelated 3rd party app we'd be correct, but using the maps our gm sends out, we'd get misorders. (it was also nice to get an email from you Rob, I think this conversation has resulted in us doubling our total communique in this game thus far! :-p)


From: Rob Ackerley [mailto:rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca ([email]rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca[/email])]

Sent: Mon 2/9/2009 2:07 PM
To: Michael Sims; vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com ([email]vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com[/email]); Former Trout

Subject: Re: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD





I was just trying to interject some humour... I am torn and we all have probably been on both sides of choices like this... Sucks yes, but part of the game and part of the duty of the GM's who graciously grant us their time to manage our games.

I jumping out of this debate now...


From: Michael Sims <mike(at)southwall.com ([email]mike(at)southwall.com[/email])>
To: Rob Ackerley <rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca ([email]rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca[/email])>; vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com ([email]vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com[/email]); Former Trout <former.trout(at)gmail.com ([email]former.trout(at)gmail.com[/email])>
Cc: Jason 4747 <jason4747(at)hotmail.com ([email]jason4747(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; 158NewArchersJason Longbow <githraine(at)yahoo.com ([email]githraine(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; 209Australia Nick Cherrier <zeclient(at)hotmail.com ([email]zeclient(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; 209China (tubby) Jacob Roberts <salexander37(at)gmail.com ([email]salexander37(at)gmail.com[/email])>; DC101tGMStephen Lytton <stevelytton(at)hotmail.com ([email]stevelytton(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 1:59:35 PM
Subject: RE: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD

So we need to rely on a 3rd-party program, which Michael does not send out the .dpy files for, instead of using the map he does send, which does have abbreviations on it which are supposedly to be accepted? It definitely looks like HST, irrelevant of what the actual text name is.

Can you at least pls take the abbreviations off the map, if you're not going to allow the ones that are printed on it?

I guess I didnt look at the error initially, but this is silly to not accept an abbrev that's on the map that's sent out.
-mike



From: Rob Ackerley [mailto:rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca ([email]rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca[/email])]
Sent: Mon 2/9/2009 1:51 PM
To: vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com ([email]vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com[/email]); Former Trout; Michael Sims
Cc: Jason 4747; 158NewArchersJason Longbow; 209Australia Nick Cherrier; 209China (tubby) Jacob Roberts; DC101tGMStephen Lytton; dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])
Subject: Re: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD


Cut and paste from RP Saves all the problems and is a lot less work too!


From: MICHAEL BOUTOT <vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com ([email]vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com[/email])>
To: Former Trout <former.trout(at)gmail.com ([email]former.trout(at)gmail.com[/email])>; Michael Sims <mike(at)southwall.com ([email]mike(at)southwall.com[/email])>
Cc: Jason 4747 <jason4747(at)hotmail.com ([email]jason4747(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; 158NewArchersJason Longbow <githraine(at)yahoo.com ([email]githraine(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; 209Australia Nick Cherrier <zeclient(at)hotmail.com ([email]zeclient(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; 209China (tubby) Jacob Roberts <salexander37(at)gmail.com ([email]salexander37(at)gmail.com[/email])>; 209Vietnam Rob Ackerley <rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca ([email]rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca[/email])>; DC101tGMStephen Lytton <stevelytton(at)hotmail.com ([email]stevelytton(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])
Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 1:49:43 PM
Subject: RE: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD

1 can clearly read Malacca Strait underneath the 3 letters in dispute. That alone makes it clear. The other earlier errors had the same conflict that should have raised a white flag.


--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Michael Sims <mike(at)southwall.com ([email]mike(at)southwall.com[/email])> wrote:

[quote:da3e25679a]From: Michael Sims <mike(at)southwall.com ([email]mike(at)southwall.com[/email])>
Subject: RE: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD
To: "Former Trout" <former.trout(at)gmail.com ([email]former.trout(at)gmail.com[/email])>
Cc: "Jason 4747" <jason4747(at)hotmail.com ([email]jason4747(at)hotmail.com[/email])>, "209GM MICHAEL BOUTOT" <vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com ([email]vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com[/email])>, "158NewArchersJason Longbow" <githraine(at)yahoo.com ([email]githraine(at)yahoo.com[/email])>, "209Australia Nick Cherrier" <zeclient(at)hotmail.com ([email]zeclient(at)hotmail.com[/email])>, "209China (tubby) Jacob Roberts" <salexander37(at)gmail.com ([email]salexander37(at)gmail.com[/email])>, "209Vietnam Rob Ackerley" <rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca ([email]rob_ackerley(at)yahoo.ca[/email])>, "DC101tGMStephen Lytton" <stevelytton(at)hotmail.com ([email]stevelytton(at)hotmail.com[/email])>, dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 11:24 AM
Yeah but you have to agree the map clearly looks like HST,
or certainly could be read that way. I mean if we cant rely
on the abbreviations on the map we're receiving from the
GM, then what can we rely on?

________________________________

From: Former Trout [mailto:former.trout(at)gmail.com ([email]former.trout(at)gmail.com[/email])]
Sent: Mon 2/9/2009 1:20 PM
To: Michael Sims
Cc: Jason 4747; 209GM MICHAEL BOUTOT; 158NewArchersJason
Longbow; 209Australia Nick Cherrier; 209China (tubby) Jacob
Roberts; 209Vietnam Rob Ackerley; DC101tGMStephen Lytton;
dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])
Subject: Re: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD


Personally I would allow the move as well. However, to be
fair to Michael, he identified WAY early at the beginning of
the game that he was going to be taking a strict
interpretation of the abbreviations. I almost had an order
disallowed because I didn't call the province the right
name - but luckily I included the correct abbreviation in
brackets...

Long story short, I'd say its the GMs call to make. =)

T.


On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Michael Sims
<mike(at)southwall.com ([email]mike(at)southwall.com[/email])> wrote:


MST and HST look identical in that font. Why are we not
allowing that move? It's not ambiguous, and the
lettering could be read as either one.
-mike


________________________________

From: Jason 4747 [mailto:jason4747(at)hotmail.com ([email]jason4747(at)hotmail.com[/email])]
Sent: Mon 2/9/2009 11:35 AM
To: 209GM MICHAEL BOUTOT; 158NewArchersJason Longbow;
209Thailand Trout former.trout; 209Australia Nick Cherrier;
209China (tubby) Jacob Roberts; 209Vietnam Rob Ackerley;
Michael Sims
Cc: DC101tGMStephen Lytton; dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])
Subject: RE: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD


Mike,

To be fair, MSt almost equals HSt on my screen, but it is
no excuse for goegraphy stupidity on my part....

As for that and other error, kids, let it be a lesson to
you - multitasking just does not work. And just say no to
drugs.

Jason





[quote:da3e25679a]Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 18:46:41 -0800
From: vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com ([email]vegas_iwish(at)yahoo.com[/email])
Subject: DC209 F08 STRANGE DAYS AHEAD
To: jason4747(at)hotmail.com ([email]jason4747(at)hotmail.com[/email]); Githraine(at)yahoo.com ([email]Githraine(at)yahoo.com[/email]);

CC: stevelytton(at)hotmail.com ([email]stevelytton(at)hotmail.com[/email]); dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc209(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])

I didn't think I'd see days like these

or WTi or CJa(nc).
Philippine F SCS can retreat to Luz.

Indonesia:
F And - Bur (*Fails*)
F TiS Supports F PHe - SIO
F Jav, no move received (*Dislodged*)
F PHe - SIO
F Jak Hold
F Med Hold
A Sab - Kuc
A Kuc - WKa

Malaysia:
F Bru Supports A Sab - Kuc
A Pah - KLu (*Fails*)

Philippines:
F NPS - ECS (*Fails*)
F SCS Supports F NPS - ECS (*Dislodged*)
F SuS Supports F Ceb - SSe
F Ara - BaS
F Ceb - SSe
A Luz - Man
F Tai Supports F SCS

Thailand:
F GTh - Tha(ec) (*Bounce*)
F MSe - Jav
F Sur Supports F MSe - Jav
F Sin Supports F MSe - Jav
F SpI - MSe
F Ked - MSt
A KBh - Tha (*Bounce*)
A KLu Supports F Sin (*Cut*)
A Bur Hold

Vietnam:
F ECS - NPS (*Fails*)
F SSe - SpI
F ViS Supports F Fuj - SCS
F Sai Supports F SpI - MSe
A HKo - Dav (*Fails*)
F Fuj - SCS
F Guz Supports F Fuj - SCS

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Builds in early, so onward we push! Russia raises a couple armies,
the Kaiser builds his navy, and Italy does a little bit of both.

Since we've got fewer players I'm inclined to start setting quicker
deadlines, so I'm going to tentatively set the deadline for Spring
1908 as this Friday, Feb. 13, at 9 pm eastern. If anyone wants me to
push it back to Monday just let me know and I will do so.

Matt

Adjustments:

Germany:
Build F Berlin

Italy:
Build A Venice
Build F Naples

Russia:
Build A St Petersburg
Build A Sevastopol

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: F Bielschowsky ([email]bielschowsky.f(at)googlemail.com[/email])
To: dc201(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc201(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email]) ; Douglas Kent (DC201 Burgundy) ([email]dougray30(at)yahoo.com[/email]) ; Jack McHugh - Flapjack (DC223 AH / DC201 Sverige) ([email]jwmchughjr(at)gmail.com[/email]) ; Jorge Saralegui (DC201 ERE) ([email]jmsaralegui(at)gmail.com[/email]) ; Steve Lytton (DC195 Columbia / DC201 Norge) ([email]stevelytton(at)hotmail.com[/email]) ; Kurt Weihs ([email]sturmkraehe(at)comcast.net[/email])
Cc: Andy Stroup - ajiowa (DC201 Arab) ([email]ajstroup1(at)yahoo.com[/email]) ; Former Trout (DC190 South Africa / DC176 Austria / DC195 Argentina / DC201 France) ([email]former.trout(at)gmail.com[/email]) ; Jackson Foster - Kai (DC201 Danmark) ([email]jrobfoster(at)gmail.com[/email]) ; Lee Taylor (DC201 former Burgundy) ([email]leewarrentaylor(at)yahoo.co.uk[/email])
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:52 PM
Subject: DC201 (Viking) - Winter 962 adjustments & Game End


Winter 962:
-------------------
EasternRomanEmpire:
Remove F Cherson Bight
Remove A Trebizond

SlavicNations:
Build A Przemysl
Build A Arkhangelsk
Build A Vladimir

Norge:
Build F Hafrsfjord
Build A Nidaros

Sverige:
Build A Birka

And all votes are in for the Endgame proposals.
Again voted down were the following proposals:
1) 2-way Draw ERE/NOR
2) DIAS
but finally all Powers agreed on this proposal:
3) 3-way Draw ERE/NOR/SLAV

And thus after 12 years of war this Viking game ends
with a joint victory for the Romans (18 SC), the Norse (15 SC) and the Slavs (11 SC). A big hand for the Slavs who seemed doomed several years earlier but managed a great comeback due to a late alliance with the Romans.
A large number of SC were burned down and destroyed forever: only 68 are left of the original 85 SC. So a minimum of 26 was still required for a Solo. It was long clear that it would be unlikely for one Power to get this many SC. The Romans came closest with in 958 a total of 22 SC.
Other survivors worth certainly mentioning are Burgundy (13 SC) and Sverige (11 SC).
Powers that were eliminated during all these years: the ArabCaliphates, Danmark, France, and the Independents.

I'm definitely going to miss the pushing and shoving to escape the deadlocks on the map. As well as the player comments on the side. Thanks everyone for making this game so much fun. Special thanks for Doug for stepping in in 957 to save Burgundy.

I also enjoyed the combination of Viking with the Scorched Earth rules although I think the Scorched Earth rules could use some tweaking to make them more interesting. Would love to hear your feedback: on the fun we had in this game as well as suggestions to improve its technical aspects.
And with enough positive feedback I might start another Viking but this time without the Scorched Earth rules.

Frank

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Austria:
F Adriatic Sea - Ionian Sea
A Bohemia Supports A Galicia - Silesia
A Bulgaria Supports F Greece (*Dislodged*)
A Galicia - Silesia
F Greece Supports F Adriatic Sea - Ionian Sea
A Moscow - Livonia
F Naples Supports F Adriatic Sea - Ionian Sea
A Piedmont - Marseilles (*Fails*)
A Rome Supports F Naples
A Sevastopol - Moscow
A Tuscany Supports A Piedmont (*Ordered to Move*)
A Tyrolia - Munich (*Fails*)
A Warsaw Supports A Galicia - Silesia


France:
A Belgium Supports A Holland
A Burgundy Supports A Marseilles
F English Channel - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Holland Supports A Belgium
F Ionian Sea - Greece (*Dislodged*)
A Marseilles Supports A Burgundy (*Cut*)
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Western Mediterranean
F North Sea Supports F Norwegian Sea
F Norwegian Sea Supports F North Sea
A Tunis - Naples (*Fails*)
F Tyrrhenian Sea Supports A Tunis - Naples


Germany:
A Berlin Supports A Munich
A Denmark - Kiel
F Kiel - Baltic Sea
A Munich Supports A Silesia - Bohemia (*Cut*)
F Norway Supports A St Petersburg
A Silesia - Bohemia (*Dislodged*)


Russia:
F Constantinople - Bulgaria(sc)
A St Petersburg Supports F Norway


Turkey:
F Aegean Sea Supports F Constantinople - Bulgaria(sc)
A Smyrna - Ankara


Austrian A Bulgaria can retreat to Serbia or Rumania.
French F Ionian Sea can retreat to Apulia or Albania or Eastern
Mediterranean.
German A Silesia can retreat to Prussia.


Retreats due by thursday the 5th. Also please everyone give votes on the following;;




3-way draw Austria, France and Germany, with Russia and Turkey surviving


Thanks.

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