Please note - this is the first time I have ever actually seen this happen, although the possibility was discussed many times in design. A Mino was dislodged in the Spring, and automatically disbanded in the retreat phase, as per the variant rules. The SC is vacant at the end of the fall due to the bounce of A Hida - Mino (Takeda) and A Owari - Mino (Oda).

End state result - Neutral Daimyo Saito Dosan, a lowly oil merchant that became the lord of a very wealthy province, rebuilds his defeated Army in Mino this winter, and it remains Neutral.

Note that my commentary here in no way constitutes a lack of confidence in Trout's GMing abilities. You all may have been tracking this situation perfectly, just wanted to make sure because it's one of those things that tends to cause confusion. .

Very impressive performance by all - I continue to watch this one with great satisfaction. Farewell to our Uesugi player - your thoughts on improvements to the design, specifically to your position are most welcome. All - Please see the (on-going) commentary below between another Uesugi player and myself. Anyone that wishes to, please feel free to comment.

B.

Ben,

One difference between Takeda moving after Uesugi and Takeda moving after Hojo is the presence of the SC in North Shinano. While an attack on either Uesugi or Hojo is perhaps equally devastating to the one attacked, the attack on Uesugi as things stand is more beneficial to Takeda because he also picks up North Shinano along the way. Takeda actually has a lot of options, but most of them require moving both units in the same direction. Since neither Asakura nor Oda can reach him in the first season, that means he'll bare his back to that side and attack either Uesugi or Takeda. If there's greater separation between him and those two, then he really has a lot of options.

With a fleet in Echigo, Uesugi can't really do much to Takeda the first year either. Technically, the army in Kozuke could challenge for North Shinano, but that isn't realistically going to happen very often. Take away the potential for a two SC opening, and the appeal of attacking Uesugi isn't much greater than any other opening. Regarding Hojo, what if the starting location was Shimosa (as a SC) and Kazusa with Sagami not an SC? (I don't know how historically accurate that might be.) This may tend to increase tension between Uesugi and Hojo over Mutsu and Hitachi while still leaving tension between Takeda and Hojo over Izu. Suddenly, though, a move in the other direction by Takeda is certainly a possibility.

I think that Oda benefits mainly from having Takeda moving away from him as he's inclined to do in the current setup. Yes, David benefited in this game because Hojo would not move on him as he could have and because Asakura got distracted on two other fronts before the hammer fell, but I do think geography played some role. Hojo was involved in matters with Takeda and I by necessity early on, and by the time of David's stab, he refused to listen to offers of peace in exchange for him attacking Oda. Asakura, meanwhile, clearly avoided the obvious conflict with Oda on the premise that such conflict would hurt them both. That's true, but it was worse to let that conflict be one-sided. I'm not denying that David did a good job, but once Asakura was persuaded to look elsewhere for growth and Hojo was entangled with Takeda and I, he had pretty open rein to that huge clump of central centers. Probably, he should have received more opposition from Chosokabe, but it didn't happen, partly because Chosokabe was more vulnerable to Shimazu and Mori than Oda. \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>I guess you've compensated Oda and Asakura for their central position with a lot of growth potential, but as long as Takeda and Chosokabe are pulled to the sides rather than to the center, it ends up being a huge prize for whoever gets the upper hand in the conflict\n between the two.  Still, I only have this one game to judge from, and I would suspect Oda doesn't always jump out so commandingly.\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Uesugi Paul\u003c/div\>",1] ); //-->

I guess you've compensated Oda and Asakura for their central position with a lot of growth potential, but as long as Takeda and Chosokabe are pulled to the sides rather than to the center, it ends up being a huge prize for whoever gets the upper hand in the conflict between the two. Still, I only have this one game to judge from, and I would suspect Oda doesn't always jump out so commandingly.

Uesugi Paul
\u003cdiv class\u003dea\>\u003cspan id\u003de_1159526d07dfabfe_1\>- Show quoted text -\u003c/span\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan class\u003de id\u003dq_1159526d07dfabfe_1\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cbr\>\u003cb\>\u003ci\>B H <\u003ca href\u003d\"mailto:screwtape777(at)gmail.com\" target\u003d\"_blank\" onclick\u003d\"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)\"\>screwtape777(at)gmail.com\u003c/a\>>\u003c/i\>\u003c/b\> wrote:\u003c/div\> \u003cblockquote style\u003d\"padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid\"\> \u003cdiv\>Paul - thanks first of all for the time put into your remarks.  You make a solid case for disconnecting Etchu from South Shinano.  \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Three topics to address here :  \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>1.  freeing Uesugi from the almost mandatory opener of F Echigo - Etchu\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>2.  strengthening Uesugi relative to Hojo and Takeda without imbalancing the H/U/T early balance.  \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>3.  lack of challenge to Oda early on\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>1.  Agree that disconnecting Etchu will give Ueusgi much more freedom\n to choose to head for Noto or Mutsu in 1570.  But...\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>2.  There is a certain dynamic here between H/U/T that I am trying to preserve.  Takeda currently has a devastating opener against both Hojo (A SSh - Sur, A Kai - Sag) or Uesugi (A SSh - Etc, A Kai - NSh) - causing both of those powers to think twice before jumping at the obvious Juggernaut analogy - an HU alliance.  They can beat him, but Takeda can hit either one so hard that Hojo and Uesugi often do better working with him than against him, unless they both agree to forgo early gains in favor of defense.  Plus, Hojo is under an equal if not greater threat, with Kai and Sagami adjacent.  The Chaos build rules alleviates most all of this tension after the first one - two years, but I am reluctant to give Takeda such a strong reason to choose to attack Hojo over Uesugi in the beginning.  I would have to create an equal effect for\n Hojo.  Any suggested ideas on how to do that?  (make Musashi or Mino vacant rather than neutral, move SC Hitachi to Shimosa is all I came up with, but don't really like any of those). \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>3.  is this a problem?  I thought Oda suffered enough from their central location, such that even with an extremely successful early start, they can still get stonewalled, as we see with David.  Also, he benefitted from Lee's (hojo) RL problems that made him mostly withdraw from the game, and Allen's (asakura) decision to leave his SCs open.  I give David the credit for his position - he soloed in an earlier version of Sengoku before, he's a very strong player. ",1] ); //--> - Hide quoted text -


B H <

Paul - thanks first of all for the time put into your remarks. You make a solid case for disconnecting Etchu from South Shinano.

Three topics to address here :

1. freeing Uesugi from the almost mandatory opener of F Echigo - Etchu
2. strengthening Uesugi relative to Hojo and Takeda without imbalancing the H/U/T early balance.
3. lack of challenge to Oda early on

1. Agree that disconnecting Etchu will give Ueusgi much more freedom to choose to head for Noto or Mutsu in 1570. But...

2. There is a certain dynamic here between H/U/T that I am trying to preserve. Takeda currently has a devastating opener against both Hojo (A SSh - Sur, A Kai - Sag) or Uesugi (A SSh - Etc, A Kai - NSh) - causing both of those powers to think twice before jumping at the obvious Juggernaut analogy - an HU alliance. They can beat him, but Takeda can hit either one so hard that Hojo and Uesugi often do better working with him than against him, unless they both agree to forgo early gains in favor of defense. Plus, Hojo is under an equal if not greater threat, with Kai and Sagami adjacent. The Chaos build rules alleviates most all of this tension after the first one - two years, but I am reluctant to give Takeda such a strong reason to choose to attack Hojo over Uesugi in the beginning. I would have to create an equal effect for Hojo. Any suggested ideas on how to do that? (make Musashi or Mino vacant rather than neutral, move SC Hitachi to Shimosa is all I came up with, but don't really like any of those).

3. is this a problem? I thought Oda suffered enough from their central location, such that even with an extremely successful early start, they can still get stonewalled, as we see with David. Also, he benefitted from Lee's (hojo) RL problems that made him mostly withdraw from the game, and Allen's (asakura) decision to leave his SCs open. I give David the credit for his position - he soloed in an earlier version of Sengoku before, he's a very strong player. \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>So I am highly inclined to change the South Shinano - Etchu border as you recommend, I just need to come up with a way to level the playing field for Hojo.  I agree that Takeda is too strong right now, relative to\n both of his neighbours.  I had hoped for a solution that retained Takeda's ability to threaten Etchu, but prevented a guaranteed loss of Echigo if he chose to go north.  That's why I was leaning towards SC Dewa - then the Uesugi opener F Ech - NSJ, A Koz - Dew still yields an SC even if A Dew has to support F NSJ right back to Ech in the fall to cover home turf.  Mutsu would remain key terrain even if it was not an SC.  But I know what you mean about the ability to build on Mutsu being key.  Maybe giving Hojo the Shimosa SC instead of Hitachi would be enough balance.  \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Variant design can be a pain...always trying to balance history with gameplay.  \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cbr\>\u003cbr\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cspan class\u003d\"gmail_quote\"\>On 10/11/07, \u003cb class\u003d\"gmail_sendername\"\>Paul Stuckwisch\u003c/b\> <\u003ca href\u003d\"mailto:pstuckwisch(at)yahoo.com\" target\u003d\"_blank\" onclick\u003d\"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)\"\>pstuckwisch(at)yahoo.com\u003c/a\>> wrote:\u003c/span\> \u003cblockquote class\u003d\"gmail_quote\" style\u003d\"padding-left:1ex;margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:#ccc 1px solid\"\> \u003cdiv\>Ben,\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Responses in bold italics below regarding Uesugi comments.\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>\u003cb\>\u003ci\>B H <\u003ca href\u003d\"mailto:screwtape777(at)gmail.com\" target\u003d\"_blank\" onclick\u003d\"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)\"\>screwtape777(at)gmail.com\u003c/a\>>\u003c/i\>\u003c/b\> wrote:\u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cblockquote style\u003d\"padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid\"\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\>and roger as well.  Question - Uesugi used to be the strongest position on the map, with a solo percentage far beyond what any other powers came close to.  Players insisted I rein in the position, so I did.  Now I think I may have gone too far.  Do you think the starting position is overly disadvantaged? \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>",1] ); //-->

So I am highly inclined to change the South Shinano - Etchu border as you recommend, I just need to come up with a way to level the playing field for Hojo. I agree that Takeda is too strong right now, relative to both of his neighbours. I had hoped for a solution that retained Takeda's ability to threaten Etchu, but prevented a guaranteed loss of Echigo if he chose to go north. That's why I was leaning towards SC Dewa - then the Uesugi opener F Ech - NSJ, A Koz - Dew still yields an SC even if A Dew has to support F NSJ right back to Ech in the fall to cover home turf. Mutsu would remain key terrain even if it was not an SC. But I know what you mean about the ability to build on Mutsu being key. Maybe giving Hojo the Shimosa SC instead of Hitachi would be enough balance.

Variant design can be a pain...always trying to balance history with gameplay.



On 10/11/07, Paul Stuckwisch < [quote:36804103f3] Ben,

Responses in bold italics below regarding Uesugi comments.


B H <
[quote:36804103f3] and roger as well. Question - Uesugi used to be the strongest position on the map, with a solo percentage far beyond what any other powers came close to. Players insisted I rein in the position, so I did. Now I think I may have gone too far. Do you think the starting position is overly disadvantaged?

\u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>The biggest concern would be Takeda's ability to force Echigo in the first year unless Uesugi blocks Etchu or forgoes any\n builds.  Fortunately, I did the former in this game, but as long as that is a strong option for Takeda, Uesugi will have limited options at the beginning.  I would say the problem is more Takeda's placement than Uesugi's because I don't know how to give Takeda better alternatives. \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>I'm considering...(in descending order of benefit)\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Changing the starting units to A Echigo, A Kozuke\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>I'd say no.  That would further limit Uesugi options to do otherwise than get in a fight with Takeda.\u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Moving SC Mutsu to Dewa\u003cbr\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>I actually like the Mutsu SC since fleets built there can shift to either theater without tipping the intent.  A Dewa SC would allow growth even while blocking the Takeda attack and letting the fleet head to sea, but\n I don't see that as an improvement over the fleet move to Etchu. \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Redrawing the borders in the far north to where Kozuke and Mutsu touch, but\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Mutsu and Hitachi do not\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>I'm not sure it makes any difference if an army from Kozuke can reach Mutsu in one season as opposed to two, at least early on.  It has the same effect for the opening.  The biggest change would be the separation between Mutsu and Hitachi, which may allow for greater peace between Uesugi and Hojo (though I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing or Takeda's position becomes even more of a problem). \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Redrawing Etchu so it does not border South Shinano\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>That would probably be the best way to limit Takeda's strong opening against Uesugi, and it would probably increase the\n possibility of Takeda-Asakura conflict, which I would think would be a good thing.  (Better would be Takeda-Oda conflict.)  Takeda needs some prospects however. ",1] ); //--> The biggest concern would be Takeda's ability to force Echigo in the first year unless Uesugi blocks Etchu or forgoes any builds. Fortunately, I did the former in this game, but as long as that is a strong option for Takeda, Uesugi will have limited options at the beginning. I would say the problem is more Takeda's placement than Uesugi's because I don't know how to give Takeda better alternatives.

I'm considering...(in descending order of benefit)

Changing the starting units to A Echigo, A Kozuke

I'd say no. That would further limit Uesugi options to do otherwise than get in a fight with Takeda.

Moving SC Mutsu to Dewa

I actually like the Mutsu SC since fleets built there can shift to either theater without tipping the intent. A Dewa SC would allow growth even while blocking the Takeda attack and letting the fleet head to sea, but I don't see that as an improvement over the fleet move to Etchu.

Redrawing the borders in the far north to where Kozuke and Mutsu touch, but
Mutsu and Hitachi do not

I'm not sure it makes any difference if an army from Kozuke can reach Mutsu in one season as opposed to two, at least early on. It has the same effect for the opening. The biggest change would be the separation between Mutsu and Hitachi, which may allow for greater peace between Uesugi and Hojo (though I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing or Takeda's position becomes even more of a problem).

Redrawing Etchu so it does not border South Shinano

That would probably be the best way to limit Takeda's strong opening against Uesugi, and it would probably increase the possibility of Takeda-Asakura conflict, which I would think would be a good thing. (Better would be Takeda-Oda conflict.) Takeda needs some prospects however. \u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Redrawing Musashi so it does not border Echigo\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>The alternative, North Shinano bordering Kozuke, is probably just as bad, if not worse.  Since Takeda would be able to force North Shinano in the spring, Uesugi would be stuck having to either cover both home centers in the fall or hoping to guess correctly while the other unit covers one or the other.  If Musashi isn't dealt with immediately, it actually provides considerable security to each of the three powers around it. \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>...or anything you might have to suggest\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>...or just leave it alone\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>All have disadvantages - I currently favor the\n third.\u003cbr\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>the base question is - do you think that Uesugi has viable options to work with any of his neighbours (Asakura, Takeda, or Hojo) and do each of them have some reasonable incentive to work with him, rather than ally against him?  My concern is that H/U does not happen nearly as much as it use to, because Takeda can royally screw either of the two with a focused attack.  \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\> \u003cdiv\>\u003cstrong\>\u003cem\>Actually, I did work with each of the powers early in the game.  Asakura was encouraged by Takeda to take Noto against our agreement, but after that we were coordinating until Oda took him apart.  I was working with Hojo after Takeda's initial attack until his general unresponsiveness led me to decide Takeda was the better partner.  And while relations with Takeda have required considerable work, we've obviously been able to work together after the initial fight (and several minor squabbles since). \n The biggest problem I saw in this game was a failure of anyone to challenge Oda early on, but whether that was due to map design or David's skill I cannot say. \u003c/em\>\u003c/strong\>\u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\> \u003cdiv\>Uesugi Paul\u003c/div\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003c/div\>\u003c/span\>\u003c/blockquote\>\u003cspan\> \u003cdiv\> \u003chr size\u003d\"1\"\> Need a vacation? \u003ca href\u003d\"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt\u003d48256/*http://travel.yahoo.com/;_ylc\u003dX3oDMTFhN2hucjlpBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwM1BHNlYwNncm91cHMEc2xrA2VtYWlsLW5jbQ--\" target\u003d\"_blank\" onclick\u003d\"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)\"\>",1] ); //-->

Redrawing Musashi so it does not border Echigo

The alternative, North Shinano bordering Kozuke, is probably just as bad, if not worse. Since Takeda would be able to force North Shinano in the spring, Uesugi would be stuck having to either cover both home centers in the fall or hoping to guess correctly while the other unit covers one or the other. If Musashi isn't dealt with immediately, it actually provides considerable security to each of the three powers around it.

...or anything you might have to suggest
...or just leave it alone

All have disadvantages - I currently favor the third.

the base question is - do you think that Uesugi has viable options to work with any of his neighbours (Asakura, Takeda, or Hojo) and do each of them have some reasonable incentive to work with him, rather than ally against him? My concern is that H/U does not happen nearly as much as it use to, because Takeda can royally screw either of the two with a focused attack.

Actually, I did work with each of the powers early in the game. Asakura was encouraged by Takeda to take Noto against our agreement, but after that we were coordinating until Oda took him apart. I was working with Hojo after Takeda's initial attack until his general unresponsiveness led me to decide Takeda was the better partner. And while relations with Takeda have required considerable work, we've obviously been able to work together after the initial fight (and several minor squabbles since). The biggest problem I saw in this game was a failure of anyone to challenge Oda early on, but whether that was due to map design or David's skill I cannot say.

Uesugi Paul

[/quote:36804103f3]
[/quote:36804103f3]


Benjamin T. Hester
"Have 'em call me, sir - I'll make this go away..."
www.geocities.com/nairenvorbeck/files
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