Remember David in all these talks of balancing the game, Diplomacy is
inherently unbalanced. Russia and France win significantly more often
than others, while England and Turkey survive to more draws. Italy
performs badly more often than most. Austria makes few draws, but more
wins than others. All these things make the game more interesting, not
lower quality.



If you want balance, you need to gravitate to the "Pure" variant
(http://www.dipwiki.com?title=pure), in which all powers are equal. Of
course the net result of such equality is that it doesn't matter if you
play Red, Blue, or Black, the result is insignificant as far as it
relates to the power played.



I guess my point is not to focus on balance purely for the sake of
adding balance, but rather make each power unique and have challenges
that relate only to that country. If you have two countries that face
essentially the same obstacle, then they become a wash and one of the
two might as well not be there. I didn't play and was just an observer
so I can't comment too much on specifics. But if one power seems weaker
than others or has obstacles that the others don't have, that's
generally ok. Those dynamics should play out in the Diplomacy. This
thought of one power remaining a huge threat to another's survival seems
like a good thing, sort of like A/I are always bear the risk of being
wiped out by the other if trust goes abused (or capitalized upon).



-mike





From: Packrat [mailto:brn2dip(at)yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 5:34 PM
To: Benjamin Hester; Matthew Kelly
Cc: Nick Higgins; Nathan Deily; Nigel PHILLIPS;
captain_sicarius(at)hotmail.com; dc262; gregory nomads; Jason K; Michael
Sims; Mike sims-family
Subject: Re: DC 262: Angstskrik - Anglo Saxon EOG



I wouldn't change the island much at all.
If I recall from earlier postmortems the issue around getting across the
water
was by design. I understand the issues that have been raised and I
think the
only one worth addressing is actually the Norse/Swede/Dane dynamic.
That
one remains skewed against the Swede since there is VERY limited avenues

out to the sea or on land.

Ya know - I just went and looked at the map again and I guess my taking
LAP
early on colored my view a bit. LAP is Swedish (at least in opening) so
they
actually do have a way out, but they remain a huge threat to Norse
survival.

Ideally making the one uniquely north and one uniquely south would be
cool, but
quite inaccurate historically. The border between them runs north south
and not
east west and that is the issue at the heart of the problem.

I'm thinking along the lines of making Scandinaiva the power with four
home dots,
keeping Denmark as is and perhaps making some sort of Franco/Prussian
conglomorate
south of Denmark. Not sure if that works for you, but I think that
would balance things
more and still keep play interesting.




________________________________

From: Benjamin Hester <screwtape777(at)gmail.com>
To: Matthew Kelly <kelly058(at)verizon.net>
Cc: Nick Higgins <congressofvienna1814(at)yahoo.com>; Nathan Deily
<ndeily(at)yahoo.com>; Nigel PHILLIPS <nephilli99(at)hotmail.com>;
brn2dip(at)yahoo.com; captain_sicarius(at)hotmail.com;
dc262(at)diplomaticcorp.com; gregory nomads <gbimmerle(at)gmail.com>; Jason K
archer <githraine(at)yahoo.com>; Mike Sims - new email
<mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>; mike(at)sims-family.net
Sent: Sat, December 26, 2009 11:44:42 PM
Subject: Re: DC 262: Angstskrik - Anglo Saxon EOG

After action report. Haven't heard an EOG called an AAR before, but
it seems appropriate You military maybe Matt?

Interesting that both the Anglo-Saxons and the Gaels seem concerned
about the Bretons. I thought that this version of the variant
achieved the intended dynamic of giving the Bretons good options to
move against the Gaels or Anglo-Saxons, but the players seem not to
agree (Anglo-Saxon and Breton conflict appeared forced to them?) This
surprised me.

Scott - as the Breton player in the last Dark Ages game, you got along
reasonably well with the Anglo-Saxons (for most of the game) if I
recall, and nearly soloed. But my question is, was it exceedingly
difficult to work with the A-S position? This is, granted, one of the
most tense positions on the map, but certainly no worse than A/I in
Standard, and that is a *very* common alliance. And for the same
reasons that the Bretons and Anglo-Saxons should consider allying I
think - gains made at each others' expense leave them vulnerable to
attacks from outside (Gaels/Danes). So it is in Standard - when A/I
fight, R/T are often the ones that benefit most.

As for the Scots, that route really isn't meant to be a good choice,
as the Scots have enough problems (holding a position on the eastern
coast of the British Isles makes them the first ones, like the
Anglo-Saxons, that have to worry about the Viking invasions). Add the
Gaels in as potential (and frequent) rivals. If the Bretons also have
a strong impulse to head north, the Scots are screwed. So it was
intended that the Scots and Bretons would have the A/G dynamic - not
much contact at first, but definitely friendly towards one another -
though the Mercia/Deira border can cause conflict...

All this said, I am much less critical of Matt's play than he is
himself - the Breton position is one of the most diplomatically
demanding on the map. I also cannot understand why the Scandinavian
powers were not in constant contact with the Bretons, especially the
Danes. Oh well - perhaps the Anglo-Saxon/Breton conflict was taken as
a given in this game, and there was no need to stir the pot.

Thanks to all the players for the very insightful EOGs - I had hoped
that Dark Ages was done at the drawing board, but I think a few final
tweaks might be in order.

B.

On 12/20/09, Matthew Kelly <kelly058(at)verizon.net> wrote:
[quote:8a77a2ad90]Evening All,
First time with this variant and my play showed it. Gaels, and Scots

offered alliance against the other. I agreed to both. Which side I

ultimately support would be determined by who got the upper hand over

other. My relations with the Anglo-Saxons on the other hand started

and continued in that way for the entire game. Here is where my
inexperience with this variant probably got me into trouble. The

have only two centers that they can reasonably be expected to secure

in the game--Cornwall and Mercia. Being surrounded I viewed both as
imperative to my survival. Nick didn't give me the warm and fuzzies

me securing either center, especially Cornwall. My view of the map

that the Anglo-Saxons have a lot more opportunities for centers

on the continent and I was perplexed by Nick's intransigence on the

It looks like Nick and I came to the same conclusions for the same
reasons--both thinking the other was out to get him. And it looks

were both wrong about the other's intentions.
As the game opened as expected the Gaels and Scotts went at it. It

became clear that the Anglo-Saxons were serious about Cornwall. My

move north to secure Strat. was successful. If the Gaels had been in
position to get an army across I would have supported them. To have
attacked the Scots without significant support would have been

I held my position and continued to profess my friendship with the

And the Scots soon had the upper hand against the Gaels and my

the north was totally dependent on the Scots' good graces which I knew

not last forever because the remainder of my forces were engaged with

Anglo-Saxons.
Second error on my part was not keeping communications open with Nick.

went at it and continued until I was gone. As noted in his after

report Nick was working successfully to get the Scots and Gaels to

after me. Even with (6) centers at one point I was forced to defend

centers and didn't have the strength to go north or south without

centers in my rear. Diplomacy was my only way out and I didn't do it.
The Scots stood by me for probably longer than they needed to and I
appreciate that. The end came with the Gaels coming after me and I

left with a choice. Fight a protracted defensive game with the

outcome or continue to keep the Anglo-Saxons pinned down for as long

possible to give the Danes and opportunity to expand and then maybe

offered some type of deal. I've never been much of a defensive

My unfamiliarity with the variant resulted in a lack of an overall

on my part. I decided to "wing it" and see which way the wind blew

advantage of any opportunities. I prefer to establish strong

early but abandoned this approach for the reason noted above. BIG

Well that is about it. I would note that during the came I never

any communications from the continent. Thought that was a bit

-Matt Kelly-
Bretons




________________________________
From: Nick Higgins <congressofvienna1814(at)yahoo.com>
To: Benjamin Hester <screwtape777(at)gmail.com>; Nathan Deily
<ndeily(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Nigel PHILLIPS <nephilli99(at)hotmail.com>; brn2dip(at)yahoo.com;
captain_sicarius(at)hotmail.com; dc262(at)diplomaticcorp.com; gregory nomads
<gbimmerle(at)gmail.com>; Jason K archer <githraine(at)yahoo.com>;
kelly058(at)verizon.net; Mike Sims - new email <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>;
mike(at)sims-family.net
Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 2:28:06 AM
Subject: Re: DC 262: Angstskrik - Anglo Saxon EOG

Thanks to B for running the game, and to my allies Nigel and Nathan

coming together at the end to set up the defense line. Congrats to

for a well-played game. First I will go over a recap of the game from

perspective, and then my view on the variant.

[quote:8a77a2ad90][quote:8a77a2ad90][quote:8a77a2ad90]Game Recap >>>

past success in the variant, and my initial impression that they were
"aimed" in my direction instead of Sweden's. I contacted the Swedes

attack, and got a favorable response.

However, I needed peace with the Bretons to pursue this plan. Matt
negotiated pretty hard, insisting on getting both Mercia and Cornwall.

argued that I should be satisfied with Brittany, and he deserves

This potentially could be reasonable, but something about Matt's tone

me worried where I didn't feel comfortable about having a long-term
alliance. Once my units were pushed east against the Danes, I would

powerless to do anything about the Breton threats in Cornwall and

was very concerned about a Breton opening into Mercia in spring,

a move into Middle Anglia in fall with their other army trailing into
Mercia. This would be a very low-risk opening by Breton, while I

entirely defenseless against it if I pushed east.

If I had felt confident moving against the Danes, I would have done a

move like convoying an army to the continent or trying to sneak into

fall. Instead, I opened by moving my army defensively to Middle

moved my fleets to take Austrasia and Brittany. I had tried to woo

Gaels into moving to Cardigan Bay against Breton, but much to my

Gaels and Scots moved very aggressively against each other. I got a

lucky when the Bretons did not open to Mercia, and was then able to

him there in fall.

At this point, I was locked into war with Breton, as confirmed by his

army builds. The Gaels and Scots were locked in war as well. I put

my diplomatic efforts into making peace between the Gaels and Scots,

gaining Nathan as an ally to attack the Bretons. Nathan seemed open

possibility, but Nigel was not. This left the four of us in two

evenly matched wars where nobody made progress.

In the east, the Danes and Norse made short work of the Swedes, and
eventually they both turned west. Nigel and I would face the brunt of

attack, so we started cooperating together against the Bretons and

Nigel and I had a slight edge in this war that we could have

pressed to total victory, but we were not able to accomplish this

Danes/Norse sent fleets west.

Death looked imminent for us (Scots and Anglos), but we were saved by

Danish stab of the Norse. I had not held out any real hope that

would stab the other, and was pleasantly surprised by this. I

sued for peace with Greg, and he acquiesced, promising to pull back

Neustria to Austrasia. The Gaels had come out the worst in the west,

were down to 3 SCs. I had emerged badly when the Danes stabbed me,

Bretons had taken advantage to reach 6 SCs while I was down to 4.

by the carrot of the return of his Irish SC that Nigel had taken,

amenable to joining the Scotch/Anglo alliance and helping us carve up

powerful 6-SC Bretons.

The next phase of the game saw the Norse steadily devoured by the

while the Bretons were killed in the west. One could ask why I never

against the Danes, but I had little choice. All of my units were

in the protracted war against Breton, in particular containing a rogue

behind my back lines. Nigel couldn't do much to help the Norse, and

fleets just kinda hung out around Scotland while the Danish armies

their way across Scandinavia.

The final phase saw the 3 of us left in the west, and the Danes in the
east. I was most concerned about a Gaelic-Scottish alliance, where

agreed to split me up after the Bretons were dead and then pursued a

draw. I fomented Gaelic-Scottish war as a delay tactic so I could

long enough to be included in a 4-way draw. Tension and suspicion

between them until a Scottish stab attempt of the Gaels in 830.

prepared though, and countered it. Previously, Nigel tried a weak

me in 829, but I blocked it.

Unable to make any rapid progress with a sneak attack, and faced with
fearsome Danish expansion, Nigel was satisfied to pursue a 4-way draw

that point. Greg tried to pull me away from the alliance (and surely

with the others), but with Denmark reaching 18 SCs, there was no

error for anyone to risk a stab. And thus the game ended in a draw.

[quote:8a77a2ad90][quote:8a77a2ad90][quote:8a77a2ad90]Variant View >>>

for you, but I've added a lot since my early analysis.)

I believe the variant suffers from a fundamental flaw that the board

circular (like a donut). What I mean by this is that each player only

able to attack their two neighbors in the circle, such as I could only
attack the Bretons or Danes. Every relationship is binary. There are

good triangles, and no vacant SC areas to keep a player sated for a

without making any enemies.

The problem with this is that it leads to stagnant diplomacy. Players
cannot easily attack in both directions, so once they pick a

are pretty much committed to that path for a while. There is not much
reason to conduct diplomacy, and I found the diplomatic volume was

low in this game.

One could argue that the board isn't circular in that it is possible

some players to "break" the circle - namely, S-A, S-B, S-D, N-A, or

ones diagonal across the North Sea (S-D and N-A) are pretty unlikely.

I will look at S-A and S-B across the isle of Britain, and then later

For S-A, I found it logistically very hard to attack Scotland. The

should be in Mercia every time, which makes him a gatekeeper for any

attack north. By sea, I could get to Deira, but getting an armada to

and Fof would be very tough. It is not a promising path, plus even if
successful would leave me in a tactically unsound extended vertical

where I would be very vulnerable to the edge powers in mid-game. From

Scottish perspective, a sneak attack south with a fleet from Deira

Anglia is possible, but advancement beyond that is limited by the

chokepoint of Wfc and the need to convoy any armies into the theater
(Scottish home SCs are 5 spaces away from Breton!).

For S-B, this is limited by the Gaels, who serve a similar role as a

gatekeeper" to Scotland. It would take a very strong relationship

for the Gaels to permit a Breton or Scottish fleet in Gaelic Sea where

would touch 3 Gaelic SCs. That limits the Bretons to moving up via

when it is only 2 provinces wide. Progress is possible in Deira and
Strathclyde, but easily defended and dependent upon Gaelic (or maybe

help. At best, they would be the junior partner in a Gaelic alliance,

the bulk of their forces would presumably be used against the Anglos.

the Scottish view, they are likely to have a fleet in Deira, making an
attack on Breton very unwieldy (since an army would be a lot more

For D-N, it's hard to conceive how either could choose to partner with

against the other. If N-W work together, then the Norse can make a

Lindholm, but then it gets awkward after that. Even if you give SCs

Jelling or Alvheim to the Norse, it seems like the Swedes would be

behind the Norse with no exit except through them. They could ally,

against D; N would attack S, and W would attack D.

For D-W to work together, this presents the same issues, with the

making awkward gains in Rogaland or Vestland. D-W can ally, but not

N; D would go west vs A, and W would go west vs N, and they would

how to split the ones between them.

Certain relationships are more likely than others. For example, with

one fleet, B is not well-equipped to attack G. B's armies are best

against A, and (as mentioned before) B has a great low risk opening

A (Pow-Mer, Gwy-Pow; then Mer-Man, Pow-Gwy OR Mer S Pow - Hwi), and

more likely to attack A. N and W are more likely to fight due to

interlocked SCs leading to conflict. S and N are less likely to fight

to the distance involved and the relative ease of naval defense (e.g.

Scotland gets a fleet to Rogaland Coast and the Norse hold their 2 SCs

with land support, the Scots will have a hard time breaking it down;

the other way in Moray Firth).

When all these relationships are analyzed, Denmark clearly has the

position on the board. D is equally well-positioned to move against

A or W, and both A and W are burdened by neighbors pre-disposed to

them. This means a willing ally for D whichever way they go, plus

risk of a stab from behind.

The Anglo-Saxons have it the worst. B is pre-disposed to attack them,

the D juggernaut is to their east. Not only that, but the

B is asymmetrical, in that B has a much easier path to attack A than

versa. With 2 armies and more advantageous starting position, B will

get Mercia and Cornwall, and can take the Mer-Hwi line from there. It

near-impossible for A to later break that line without pressure from

but with Cornwall in Breton hands, it is very tough to ever get around

corner there. They can bounce B in Cornwall, but this leaves A down a

too. A needs to get G's help, except S is pre-disposed to attack G

is too far away), and so G will need to defend against S.

If one accepts my judgments of what attacks are pre-disposed to occur,

this is likely to happen:

B attacks A
S attacks G
N attacks W
D is left with option of attacking W or A

[quote:8a77a2ad90][quote:8a77a2ad90][quote:8a77a2ad90]Ideas for Variant Adjustments>>>

if Ean-Cir-Jel could all reach each other in two turns?

Another is to collapse the waters above North Sea - e.g., get rid of
Zetland, and combine Sca/Nwg and Mof/Roc. Now S and N can attack each

easily.

A third would be to reconfigure the Bretons. This could be done by

them two fleets (so they can attack G), but then making it possible

fleet to attack the Anglos too. E.g. have Dyfed and Hamptonshire

Atlantic Ocean, then combine what's left of English Channel and Strait

Dover. Now Breton and Anglo can attack each other navally

Anglo/Gael can attack each other more easily too.

A fourth is to reduce the army vertical distance on Britian, such as

an army attack by any of the 3 on any other of the 3 viable. What if
Pow-Cir-Ean all could reach each other in 2 turns by land?

A fifth is to make the Norse/Swede relationship less messy, so that

could more easily ally and move in different directions. I'm ok with

rels (I love them in Sengoku!), but it seems a bit unfair that these

only two powers with this type of built-in tension.

This feedback is intended in a purely constructive way. I face a

dilemma with my Congress of Vienna variant, which also has "circular"
issues, and I'm still trying to find a solution there. Thinking

dilemma here has helped me to see some new possibilities in my own

Hope this helps you B. For anyone else who read this far (yeah

thanks! - Nick