The two-way Zhao-Yan draw proposal has passed. Looks like this northern juggernaut was too formidable to contemplate continued battle!
Orders and results album: http://imgur.com/a/p7CKD
Thank you very much for participating in this first playtest. Thanks especially to those who shared their strategy, diplomatic forays, and thoughts with each orders, they really helped to get a sense of what was going on and going through peoples' minds. Please share your End-of-Game thoughts; I'll collect them and edit this post to include them here. Aside from the usual, if you have any thoughts on the following especially please include them:
a) What do you think of your power's strength compared to the others? How good are its expansion opportunities? Its defensibility?
b) How did the fleet and wall rules affect your game? Did you think they were too powerful or too weak?
I have a few changes in mind of course:
1. Make Pin and Sha adjacent
2. Add a neutral supply centre in WPa
3. (maybe) Failed inland support/moves by Fleets would not revert the Fleet to an Army
4. (maybe) Make Diq and Han adjacent
5. (maybe) Get rid of JPa, and have Jul and Sgg take half each (Jul would be adjacent to Zho)
6. (maybe) Have Yuy be adjacent to Gua
7. (probably not) Allow fleets to provide regular strength support inland without reverting to Army
Once I make up my mind on all this I'll start up another game!
==== ZHAO EOG ============
Hi,
First of all I want to thank Samy for this great variant and this very good GMing. It was really fun and I love this variant. Especially the river rules make it interesting and the wall rules are a good addition, too.
I started as Zhao and looked for a partner as usual. I had the feeling that an attack on Yan is impossible because of the good defending position. I feeled myself forced to attack Wei because I couldn`t find a way to cooperate because the SCs of interest are to near by. My luck was that Yan was willing to ally with me and attacked Qi from an early stage. So I started growing. After that I builded a solid line against Wei and started moving against Qin. Qin failed in communication in my eyes: attacked Han, moved in Chus and my territories at the same time so it was easy for me to install an alliance against him. After the defeat of Qi and Qin I had Chu, Han and Yan as alliance options. But Chu and Han failed to communicate with me and they attacked me so I had to stay with Yan. I believe Sean and I played very good together. So: Thanks, Sean, that was a great alliance.
To the countries:
Zhao:
Is good to play. The only thing for me that was missing is the possibility to attack Yan. If Yan attacks you, you will loose. So you are forced to ally with him. If you can do this there is potential growing.
Yan:
Is too strong. He has such a good defending position. Qi and Zhao can never attack Yan. Even together it is nearly impossible. So you can`t do much wrong if you are Yan.
Wei:
Wei is a lame duck. In the middle of the map. Surrounded by 3 countries, not much SCs to grow. It needs to be strengthend I think.
Han:
Is also in the middle of the map but with much more potenial. There are a lot of reachable SCs around so I believe it is good to play.
Qi:
Could be interesting to play. Its main problem is the strength of Yan. If Qi can handle that there is much space in every direction.
Qin:
Is similar to France in Standard. Good position, not much to fear, a lot of options (attack on Han or Chu). So I think this country is well designed.
Chu:
Chu is for me the most interesting country. It covers a wide range along the Yangtze River. You have to play it very carefully to let your powers focussed but if you can handle this you are in agreat situation.
So in my eyes I would look for two changes:
1.Making Yan weaker
2.Making Wei stronger
As my suggestion I would remove the northern walls of Ji and Yuy and think of a 4th sea space in the northern ocean. Making Wei stronger is not that easy. I would look for a 4th starting SC but how to handle that without weaken Han, Zhao or Qi? So this is a tough question.
@Samy: I don`t like your 7 suggestions. I would especially change nothing on the fleet rules they are really great. The land changes are in the wrong direction, I think.
@Sean: I think it is much easier for Yan to stab Zhao in an early stage. Zhao has never the possibilty to stab Yan. In a later stage there was a solid line so that nobody could stab the other succsesfull.
Lucas
==== YAN EOG ================
Thank you Samy for creating and GMing Warring States; it takes quite a bit of work to do it with so little mistakes. I admittedly didn't realize until I took my hand to GMing what it took. I've made plenty of mistakes.
Congratulations to Lucas for his end of the Yan-Zhao 2-way draw.
As requested, I'll handle these items as I continue my EOG:
"a) What do you think of your power's strength compared to the others? How good are its expansion opportunities? Its defensibility?
b) How did the fleet and wall rules affect your game? Did you think they were too powerful or too weak?
I have a few changes in mind of course:
1. Make Pin and Sha adjacent
2. Add a neutral supply centre in WPa
3. (maybe) Failed inland support/moves by Fleets would not revert the Fleet to an Army
4. (maybe) Make Diq and Han adjacent
5. (maybe) Get rid of JPa, and have Jul and Sgg take half each (Jul would be adjacent to Zho)
6. (maybe) Have Yuy be adjacent to Gua
7. (probably not) Allow fleets to provide regular strength support inland without reverting to Army"
To begin "What do you think of your power's strength compared to the others?", Yan's main advantage is that geographically; it is like a cross between England and Turkey in standard minus the convoy capacity, which for me was kinda odd, but the ability to revert fleets to armies on the fly by movement helped to maintain offensive and defensive capacities. With Zhao to its west and Qi immediately to its south and its initial naval rival, the ability to shift back and forth between fleets and armies makes a big component of Yan's survival through early game.
Ultimately, my initial arrangements consisted of attempting to prevent Zhao heading northeast initially and preventing Qi from coming north. The primary difficulty was that Qi and Zhao are Yan's principle neighbors, and Qi sits ontop of Kor that Yan has to access to continue south onto Chu.
Qi-Yan almost puts me in mind of Austria and Italy in standard. The principle issue is Yan pursuing a naval policy has to move through Kor to access Ecs, and Kor is on top of Qi's Jia. The last thing any Yan wants is a Qi-Zhao alliance, and I'd be completely exposed with Qi's last minute adjustments enabling me to head south rapidly navally. The biggest drawback Yan has a harder time stabbing Zhao than vice versa, and I largely kept a unit reserved for defense to guard against it.
"Its defensibility?"
With Sgg and JPa, I feared a Zhao assault more than any other beyond my oceans with Qi after Qi was dispatched; I kept a unit reserved for defense. I think that vulnerability is necessary in the Qi-Yan-Zhao triangle. I contemplated just making fleets a force of 2 to make things simpler, but I thoroughly enjoyed the sparring for Lin. It would have been vastly different if that rule was in effect, so I'd scrub it as the strategy and tactics would be pretty different.
"How did the fleet and wall rules affect your game?"
Well, JPa and Sgg are not effected by the walls, and Boh and Lba aren't effected by the river bonus moving north. So, Yan walls only impact a unit in Gua, and Boh-Lin is necessary for the floating fortress bonus and FRM option.
"Did you think they were too powerful or too weak?"
I had to work to bring them into play, so I'd say balanced.
There are plenty of things that could have gone differently such as I was anticipating more of a naval policy from Chu, and Ross didn't institute it until towards endgame mainly. Wei-Yan relations imploded early, and I was forced to depend more on Chu and Zhao.
Overall, I agree with Barry. I think that the game should be played some more before edits occur.
from Sean
==== WEI EOG =============
Hey Samy,
I really love the great discussion & can add little to the detailed quantitative analysis you, Sean, Charles & Lucas have put forth. I tend to fall where you do vice Lucas' strong opinion. The game is about diplomacy ... deal making & etc. Wei had challenges, but I put the cause for my loss not as systemic due to unlucky geography vis a vis my neighbors, but by an unlucky combination of alliances & possibly not seeing the writing on the wall soon enough.
I do admit Yan seems to be in a catbird seat better than either Turkey or England in Standard dip. Turkey is the best analogy I'm thinking: really only two potential enemies to contend with. I think all parties, particularly Qi, underestimated the naval edge Yan had once friendship with Zhao was secured.
The fleet/river rules leave me wishing there were more rivers! I think only once did someone move more than 1 region.
But I for one would completely forgive all players for not having as powerful grasp on the possibilities as in Standard dip ... it WAS our first game! That's why I fall most in favor of: change nothing, have another game with which ever players decide to join (and I would ... regardless of country of assignment) & see what happens. The scientist in me remembers: one sample is not statistically significant!
Thanks again everyone! I was in a game of Winter Blitz at the same time as this & hated that I got caught in a couple of NMRs ... but for sure, THIS was the game I was most excited by. Best wishes all!
Barry of Wei |
