Hey John, glad to hear from you.
I'm completely on board with that. Frankly Packrat got me paranoid that he was going to throw the game to Austria to guarantee his own survival, hence my advocating against him so strongly. It sounds like I misinterpreted his intent, my mistake.
I originally thought that it might be possible for the weaker powers to force a triumvirate holding both A and I at bay, but I frankly didn't see how we could keep Austria from soloing and also push Italy back. I think a DIAS is quite possible - Austria is virtually stalemated at this point as long as no one wants to let him win. Italy could fall on me from behind, but a betrayal of that magnitude would risk my throwing to Austria to let him solo in exchange for a survival. They could both attack the rest of us agreeing to a 2 way draw, but that would be a high risk operation for both - just a center or two taken more quickly or a stalemate line crossed and someone solos while the other merely survives.
Hence my proposing a DIAS. The stalemate with Austria will hold as long as the rest of us and Italy keep it going. If Italy turns to attack, he risks the stalemate line being broached and Austria soloing. A DIAS ensures he is part of the draw. So it comes down to this - does Italy take the gamble on being able to solo or maybe be part of a smaller draw, at the risk of Austria taking a solo before he can re-establish a stalemate line? Or does he go with the draw that guarantees a victory.
Time will tell. For myself, I'll bet on his taking the guaranteed scenario, and if I'm wrong, I'll suffer the consequences.
Packrat - good to know you aren't too worked up! Game should be fun, not stressful.
Andrew
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 6:04 AM, John R <untitled36(at)yahoo.com ([email]untitled36(at)yahoo.com[/email])> wrote:
Hey all,
I've remained much more silent than normal in this game, a big part of which is attributable to the fact of me being on dial-up instead of my usual high-speed internet. But since everyone else in sending out lengthy emails, I feel obliged to at least chime in.
White Wolf reminded us to be civil, but honestly I don't think Packrat or Germany crossed the line in my opinion. Sure, they both bandied about the word liar, but in a game like this, that's hardly unexpected or unfair. And Andrew, Packrat is ranting for a purpose. I wouldn't fear his claims about never playing with you again (I'm sure that struck fear into your heart). I've played some 5 or so games with packrat. In the very first one he swore never to trust me or work with me again, but in every game we've ended up working together at least for a portion of the game.
All that aside, though, Packrat was 100% right in that you should have worked with us. It's obvious this game is going to go to either A or I or an A/I draw. Since my arrival on the board, Packrat and I have worked with the other powers to stop the advancing hordes, but the other powers (france and both germans), seemed unwilling to see the need for unity. After last turn, it is unquestionably too late to stop Italy and austria. The only question is who will take the prize. I know Andrew has to be hoping to be enough of a force to be a weaker third power in a draw, which is a fair plan. However, since this means he would have to vote against the A/I draw proposals and since he isn't much of a threat, it seems A and I would be better served to carve him up and then go for the two way (or race to a solo, whatever).
For my part, I hold a key position on the board. I intend to continue holding it. It is to the interest of everyone besides Austria to leave me there and even to assure I have one support each season. All I'm looking for is a survival, and, again, I believe my survival benefits us all (apart from austria). So duke it out if you must, just make sure we keep Austria out of scandanavia by supporting me. In exchange, I'll vote for any end-game proposal that comes my way no matter how crazy it may be. Want to propose a solo for the fleet in the aegean sea? I'm on board! 
John
From: Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com ([email]brn2dip(at)yahoo.com[/email])>
To: Andrew Tanner <damienthryn(at)gmail.com ([email]damienthryn(at)gmail.com[/email])>
Cc: The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com ([email]cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; Thomas Curran <forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com ([email]forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; DC239 Forum <dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])>; Tim Fuhrmeister <timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com ([email]timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; Darryl Good <dipknight(at)gmail.com ([email]dipknight(at)gmail.com[/email])>; John Reside <Untitled36(at)yahoo.com ([email]Untitled36(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; Matthew Strebe <strebenator(at)gmail.com ([email]strebenator(at)gmail.com[/email])>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 11:41:46 PM
Subject: Re: DC-239 Fall 1910 Adjudication
<GRIN>
Trust me - I'm not as worked up as you think I am.
From: Andrew Tanner <damienthryn(at)gmail.com ([email]damienthryn(at)gmail.com[/email])>
To: Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com ([email]brn2dip(at)yahoo.com[/email])>
Cc: The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com ([email]cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; Thomas Curran <forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com ([email]forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; DC239 Forum <dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])>; Tim Fuhrmeister <timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com ([email]timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; Darryl Good <dipknight(at)gmail.com ([email]dipknight(at)gmail.com[/email])>; John Reside <Untitled36(at)yahoo.com ([email]Untitled36(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; Matthew Strebe <strebenator(at)gmail.com ([email]strebenator(at)gmail.com[/email])>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 10:25:33 PM
Subject: Re: DC-239 Fall 1910 Adjudication
Hey you can have all the beef with me you want or define matters as you wish. I don't believe Diplomacy is a role playing game, I don't play it as such, and never will, whether you like it or not. Even when ostensibly playing a role if you act in a manner that seems offensive, I will call you on it - regardless of whatever lists discuss the issue at length or what conclusions they draw.
Did I ever say you did or didn't give STP back? When was that an issue? I stated that you took Russian territory, which you did. I don't argue the point that it was given back - in fact it is pretty clear from the game record that you did - but its just not relevant to the fact of whether or not you owned Russian territory at one point.
Hey whatever strokes your ego best- I'm sure you have and will again do amazing things in the final throes of a board game. However you do not know what I considered. I considered working with you, but you seemed too caught up on how 'hard' you worked to take Norway back from the old Germany for my taste. I considered working with Austria, but didn't see a real future in that since he could solo without my help. I considered working with Italy, and he turned out to be the best match as an ally. We'll see what happens next.
We could argue perpetually about the game itself, but to no end - we will probably never agree. I called you on what I perceived as rude behavior, and you don't agree with that. I've argued everything I've felt compelled to argue. From here I'll play as I see fit, and you play as you see fit, and with luck we won't meet in a game again.
You can of course feel free to respond or argue or do whatever you'd like with this final message. Again, whatever strokes the ego and makes you happy. But I won't respond in kind. Feel free to have the last word. I've said my piece - and thoroughly enjoyed seeing you get worked up over it.
Peace!
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com ([email]brn2dip(at)yahoo.com[/email])> wrote:
[quote:7a4a6fc670] Diplomacy is a ROLE PLAYING game - and if you cannot separate the person from
the role then YOU are the one in need of therapy.
This point has been discussed at some length on different lists. I would happily play with
Tim in any future games since he generally deals in an even handed manner. Oh - and just
to be clear - my problem was not actually Italy taking my dots - I half expected that - so
much as it was he statement that Germany forced his hand. That was a ludicrous statement
at best.
What you don't know is that I vacated STP and GAVE STP BACK to Russia as part of
a plan to get things back on track. You just have no clue what the heck you are talking about
and while that isn't your fault, you talk as if you know - and you don't.
One thing you never considered was you and I working against A/I. It would certainly not
have been easy, but it could have been done. You wanted to push how worthless my position
was and pushed that cause. What you don't know is that players like Tim know me from Cat23
and they know what I can do in these situations. And I honestly believe THAT is a part of why
Tim did what he did. Actually a smart move on his part. The cowardly part was blaming it on
Germany.
From: Andrew Tanner <damienthryn(at)gmail.com ([email]damienthryn(at)gmail.com[/email])>
To: Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com ([email]brn2dip(at)yahoo.com[/email])>
Cc: The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com ([email]cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; Thomas Curran <forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com ([email]forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; DC239 Forum <dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])>; Tim Fuhrmeister <timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com ([email]timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; Darryl Good <dipknight(at)gmail.com ([email]dipknight(at)gmail.com[/email])>; John Reside <Untitled36(at)yahoo.com ([email]Untitled36(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; Matthew Strebe <strebenator(at)gmail.com ([email]strebenator(at)gmail.com[/email])>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 9:04:53 PM
Subject: Re: DC-239 Fall 1910 Adjudication
"Please note the comments are framed in terms of Germany, England, Russia and Italy and NOT
Tim, John or Andrew. Press can spew anything the publisher would like it to, and I tend to use
it as a tool."
Nice try. Everyone knows who is playing Italy. It is illogical to go on about 'Italian cowardice' unless the supposed cowardice is intrinsic to the character of Italy itself. As 'Italy' is but three dots and units in a particular geographic position to begin a game, and does not move nor formulate strategy of its own accord, it follows that the player who is controlling the nation is ultimately the focus of all diplomacy, press, condemnations, and rankings.
Bottom line - if you were truly insulting 'Italy' as separate from 'Tim' you suffer from a particularly acute cognitive disconnect and you may want to consider intensive therapy under the guidance of a trained professional.
"Now, I think you underestimate your influence here. It was YOUR whining and carrying on and
calling for my death that made this worse."
Hm. A compliment of sorts! If whining and carrying on and calling for death on my part has such a profound effect, I'd be interested to see what would happen if I applied the far more sophisticated and thus likely effective techniques of intimidation or persuasion.
"As for your argument that you wanted Italy to give you
EDI - well - if that was indeed the case then WHY SUPPORT HIM in to EDI??"
Hm. Good point...my plans were less than optimal on this point, clearly. With a ranked order preference of 1. Staying at 5 centers, 2. Finding the optimal arrangement required in order to forestall Austrian advances and maybe roll him back, or 3. Letting you get a build that would serve no purpose, clearly when flat out denied number 1 by Italy who had no desire to see me in his path of expansion I should have reverted to my lowest preference, 3, rather than take the next best option, 2, which now allows Italy to force an immediate and likely permanent quantitative superiority in the Mediterranean that can threaten Austria's entire southern front.
"Before you came on board and disrupted things we were all working on stopping Austria - plain
and simple."
Well, I still am, and Italy, and I imagine Russia as well. Funny, your unwilling sacrifice makes it easier to stop Austria. So in a sense everyone still is working on stopping Austria - plain and simple.
"As for me owning a "fair bit" of Russian territory - all I ever got that was Russian was STP. NEVER
any further than that."
Quite consoling to Russia, I imagine. Still, point to you there, I was thinking you'd made it into Moscow, when you'd only moved to Livonia, adjacent to an empty Warsaw. Oh, and supported Germany to Russia's center in Sweden. Clearly, I'm an evil, terrible lier.
"In this game, in general, you expect some degree of duplicity and deceit, but there are actually precious
few who outright lie as you have since you got here. Take comfort in knowing I will not be in any future
games with you, sir."
Whew! Load off my mind. Although that we share this game was not your choice, and if I come in as a replacement, it may not be then either. But at least, as I'm sure everyone I've played against can attest, you are absolutely correct that I am one of the 'precious few' who outright lie rather than merely deceive and generally carry on in a duplicitous manner.
All that aside, no on an Austria/England draw and I propose a DIAS
Cheers!
Andrew
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com ([email]brn2dip(at)yahoo.com[/email])> wrote:
[quote:7a4a6fc670] My dear Kaiser -
Please note the comments are framed in terms of Germany, England, Russia and Italy and NOT
Tim, John or Andrew. Press can spew anything the publisher would like it to, and I tend to use
it as a tool.
Now, I think you underestimate your influence here. It was YOUR whining and carrying on and
calling for my death that made this worse. As for your argument that you wanted Italy to give you
EDI - well - if that was indeed the case then WHY SUPPORT HIM in to EDI??
Before you came on board and disrupted things we were all working on stopping Austria - plain
and simple.
As for me owning a "fair bit" of Russian territory - all I ever got that was Russian was STP. NEVER
any further than that.
In this game, in general, you expect some degree of duplicity and deceit, but there are actually precious
few who outright lie as you have since you got here. Take comfort in knowing I will not be in any future
games with you, sir.
From: Andrew Tanner <damienthryn(at)gmail.com ([email]damienthryn(at)gmail.com[/email])>
To: Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com ([email]brn2dip(at)yahoo.com[/email])>
Cc: The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com ([email]cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; Thomas Curran <forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com ([email]forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; DC239 Forum <dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])>; Tim Fuhrmeister <timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com ([email]timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; Darryl Good <dipknight(at)gmail.com ([email]dipknight(at)gmail.com[/email])>; John Reside <Untitled36(at)yahoo.com ([email]Untitled36(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; Matthew Strebe <strebenator(at)gmail.com ([email]strebenator(at)gmail.com[/email])>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 7:44:53 PM
Subject: Re: DC-239 Fall 1910 Adjudication
Wow. Insults because a player acted in his own self interest. Nice to know you can play a game and have someone publicly crying and spewing rudeness because you don't get what you want. Way to make the game enjoyable for everyone.
Yeah, I was trying to convince him to help crush you - but you don't see him giving me Edi as I asked, do you? And do you see ME potentially being able to solo here? Nope. Its Italy, Austria, or some draw with both of them in it. And lets see...he went from being down a center to up a center - and at no cost except, oh yes, assertions of cowardice. Apparently making a good move is a sign of cowardice. And because the moves sort of kind of favor me in the short run he is afraid of me? Apparently I can do great harm through a compter terminal
Where do you get that Russia will be eliminated anyway? We've just as big of an interest in supporting him in place to block an Austrian solo as anyone else. And now that Austria has kindly moved away - he's not even threatened!
As a 'short timer' who came in to try and help an end stage game run smoothly to the finish, I suppose my arguments against the utility of your being left alive have less value. But how about this. Russia, if you want to pay back this guy for owning a fair bit of your territory back when, I'm more than happy to support STP-NWY anytime you are ready. Heck, we do it right and you could score a build.
Andrew
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com ([email]brn2dip(at)yahoo.com[/email])> wrote:
[quote:7a4a6fc670] I know the fortunes of this game turn on a dime (Hell, they just did) but please
consider the following.
One player who has been here since March (6 MONTHs ago) and the third
Russian player are about to be eliminated because Italy hasn't got the BALLS
to stand up to someone who has been here for a little over a week. I'm not sure
why Italy is so afraid of Germany - but his actions and email to me signify that
to be the case.
Worthy of note is that we will be the first countries to be eliminated who did not
run away as did France and Turkey.
So, Russia and I get eliminated and the short timer gets credited with a survival.
I know, I know, nobody said life is fair. But nor do they say it has to suck this badly either.
Flippin Italian cowardice!!!!!!!!!!
Germany - nice job turning Italy against me. Guess he is weaker of will than I thought.
From: The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com ([email]cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com[/email])>
To: Thomas Curran <forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com ([email]forgodandglory(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; DC239 Forum <dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com ([email]dc239(at)diplomaticcorp.com[/email])>; Tim Fuhrmeister <timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com ([email]timfuhrmeister(at)hotmail.com[/email])>; Darryl Good <dipknight(at)gmail.com ([email]dipknight(at)gmail.com[/email])>; Andrew Jameson <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com ([email]cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; John Reside <Untitled36(at)yahoo.com ([email]Untitled36(at)yahoo.com[/email])>; Matthew Strebe <strebenator(at)gmail.com ([email]strebenator(at)gmail.com[/email])>; Andrew Tanner <damienthryn(at)gmail.com ([email]damienthryn(at)gmail.com[/email])>; Scott Troemel <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com ([email]brn2dip(at)yahoo.com[/email])>
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 1:10:44 PM
Subject: DC-239 Fall 1910 Adjudication
Guys,
Sorry this is late. Totally slipped my mind. Lots of action this round, as Germany goes aggressive, England loses his home centers, and Austria/Italy duke it out.
Players:
Austria: Darryl Good dipknight(at)gmail.com ([email]dipknight(at)gmail.com[/email])
England: Packrat brn2dip(at)yahoo.com ([email]brn2dip(at)yahoo.com[/email])
France: Civil Disorder
Germany: Andrew Tanner damienthryn(at)gmail.com ([email]damienthryn(at)gmail.com[/email])
Italy: Tim Fuhrmeister timfuhrmeister(at)yahoo.com ([email]timfuhrmeister(at)yahoo.com[/email])
Russia: John R untitiled36(at)yahoo.com ([email]untitiled36(at)yahoo.com[/email])
Turkey: Civil Disorder
Orders:
Austria:
A Bohemia Supports A Munich
A Budapest - Trieste (*Fails*)
F Constantinople - Aegean Sea
A Greece Hold
A Kiel Supports A Munich (*Dislodged*)
A Livonia - Prussia
A Moscow Supports F Norway - St Petersburg(nc) (*Void*)
A Munich Supports A Kiel (*Cut*)
A Sevastopol - Armenia
A Trieste - Albania
A Tyrolia - Trieste
A Warsaw - Silesia
England:
A Edinburgh Hold (*Dislodged*)
F Norway Supports A St Petersburg
Germany:
A Denmark - Sweden
F Helgoland Bight - Denmark
A Holland Supports A Ruhr - Kiel
F North Sea Supports F Yorkshire - Edinburgh
A Ruhr - Kiel
Italy:
A Belgium Hold
A Burgundy - Munich (*Fails*)
F English Channel Supports A Belgium
F Ionian Sea - Adriatic Sea
F London Hold
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Western Mediterranean
F North Atlantic Ocean - Liverpool
A Paris Supports A Burgundy (*Ordered to Move*)
A Picardy Supports A Belgium
A Piedmont Supports A Venice
A Venice Supports A Tyrolia - Trieste
F Yorkshire - Edinburgh
Russia:
A St Petersburg Hold
Retreats:
English A Edinburgh can retreat to Clyde or OTB.
Austrian A Kiel can retreat to Berlin or OTB.
NOTE: I've taken the liberty with both retreats, since there was only one on-board option. Packrat and Darryl, please let me know if you'd prefer OTB, and I'll make the change.
Unit Positions: (SCs/Units)
Austria: (15/12) - Build 1
Armies - Alb, Arm, Ber, Boh, Bud, Gre, Mos, Mun, Pru, Sil, Tri
Fleets - Aeg
England: (1/2) - Disband 1
Armies - Cly
Fleets - Nwy
France: ELIMINATED 1909
Germany: (4/5) - Disband 1
Armies - Hol, Kie, Swe
Fleets - Den, Nth
Italy: (13/12) - Build 1
Armies - Bel, Bur, Par, Pic, Pie, Ven
Fleets - Adr, Edi, Eng, Lon, Lvp, Wes
Russia: (1/1)
Armies - StP
Turkey: ELIMINATED 1906
Deadline:
Winter 1910 is due Monday, September 14 at 2pm EDT (6pm GMT.) I'll put out a corrected map ASAP if either Packrat or Darryl choose to remove their retreated unit.
Any issues or errors, let me know.
Map and RP file are attached for your convenience, enjoy!
Thanks all,
The White Wolf
I'm a Firefly fan and proud! Read my fiction:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1369632/
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[/quote:7a4a6fc670]
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