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Diplomaticcorp Discussion Forum:  dc279

(2nd 1648 Playtest)


Post:< 15184 >
Subject:< 1648 091010: Summer 1655 Retreats >
Topic:< dc279 >
Category:< Active Games >
Author:offdisc
Posted:Mar 24, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Viewed:859 times

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Charles,
As I mentioned in my previous email, I use the DC Variants page for descriptions.  It includes a very detailed point about Ingria, never mentioning Denmark or Standard Dip:
"Ingria is a canal province (much as Copenhagen), thus allowing units to move from Abo, Lake Ladoga, the Gulf of Bothnia, Novgorod (South Coast) and Riga to Ingria (and vice versa). The River Neva is shown on the map to indicate this."

Basically, if an analogy to Standard is to be made, it should be to CON, not to DEN.  Thus CON allows units to pass through, but BUL has coasts.

I asked this question in a previous email and have not received an answer:  If Abo has no coasts, then it cannot force a break in Ing's coasts either (ala Swe / Den in Standard).  If Ing has no coasts, what the heck does it need a Canal for????  I have never seen a Dip board produced with such a flagrant redundancy built in.  The existence of the canal obviously shows that the designers made Ing with separate coasts.... and thus Abo must have separate coasts as well.

As a replacement player, I never received the large map or the pre-game description emails.  So I can only go by what I find on the DC website. 

Mike---------
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
"Whenever some act of wondrous power must be performed, Michael is sent" --- Pope Saint Gregory the Great


2010/3/24 Charles Féaux de la Croix <charlesf(at)web.de ([email]charlesf(at)web.de[/email])>

Hi guys,
 
from what I gather, Jorge has communicated to you players separately his resigning from the game. He cited in his correspondence with me his dissatisfaction over Abo/Lake Ladoga.
 
Now, the current variant rules do state that Ingria works much as Denmark in Standard Diplomacy. That logically also entails that Abo functions much the same as Sweden does in Standard.
 
Hence, there are no coastal specifications for Abo on the big map I sent to all players upon starting the game. Realpolitik's adjucation output equally expressly does not list any coasts for Abo as a careful reading of the fall adjucation shows.
 
I recognise that the variant rules would benefit from a more explicit statement beyond pointing to the Denmark analogy. For what is obvious to a designer may not be to playtesters (a frequent phenomenon in the rules-writing process). Actually, pointing out such room for improvement is indeed to a large extent what playtesting's about and my variants have benefited from such helpful playtester input. I regret Jorge plainly doesn't share that outlook.
 
Jorge has equally reproached me for not clarifying this situation to him beforehand. However, as it so happens I did actually note at least once in a mail to him prior to game-start that:
 
"Systematically, [the addition of Lake Ladoga as a space] means that Karelia will have two coasts, whereas Abo will still only have one (much as Standard's Sweden despite a canal space touching it in the middle)."
 
I'm sorry Jorge no longer remembered that. In light of the extensive variant design discussions Jorge has participated in in the past, I was not aware of his erroneous assumption/lapse of memory. Otherwise I would have of course again stressed that point in my communications to him, much as I notify any player whenever I notice such an issue. I don't spot all such issues, but I do try.
 
Suffice to say that I consider these illegitimate grounds for abandoning a game and am sorely disappointed.
 
Now, this means I shall seek a Polish replacement. Once I've sent out this summer adjucation, I shall immediately contact DC's replacement list and advertise the position more generally on the site. Lets hope we shall have a replacement before long. As soon as a replacement has materialised, I shall set a new deadline that affords the new Pole sufficient time to negotiate.
 
My hope is we'll be back on track before to long.
 
Cheers,
 
Charles
 
----------
PLAYERS:
    AUSTRIA: Mike Hoffman <mrh(at)panix.com>
    DENMARK-NORWAY: Marc Ellinger <mellinger(at)blitzbardgett.com> (eliminated Winter 1653)
    ENGLAND: Harvey Morris <hmtucaz(at)gmail.com>
    FRANCE: Nigel Phillips <nephilli99(at)hotmail.com>
    POLAND-LITHUANIA: TBA
    RUSSIA: Mikael Johansson <m_don_j(at)hotmail.com> (eliminated Winter 1650)
    SPAIN: Dirk Knemeyer <dirk(at)knemeyer.com>
    SWEDEN: Matthew Kelly <kelly058(at)verizon.net> (joined Winter 1652)
    TURKEY: Aidan Slattery <AiSlattery(at)aol.com>


PROCLAMATIONS:
    o POLISH MONARCH FORSAKES HIS PEOPLE
    o ENGLISH REPAIR TO FINLAND

PRESS: None. Sad
 
RETREATS:
 
England:
A Ingria - Abo










SUPPLY CENTER OWNERSHIP (Winter 1654):
 
Austria(5): Bavaria, Prague, Saxony, Trieste, Vienna.
England(Cool: Abo, Bristol, Christiania, Ireland, London, Scotland, Stockholm, United Provinces.
France(11): Brest, Flanders, Lorraine, Lower Saxony, Marseilles, Paris, Rhineland-Westphalia, Savoy, Swabia, Switzerland, Venice.
Poland-Lithuania(10): Copenhagen, Courland, Cracow, Moscow, Novgorod, Prussia, Riga, Vilna, Voronezh, Warsaw.
Spain(10): Algiers, Madrid, Mecklenburg, Morocco, Naples, Papal States, Portugal, Seville, Tunis, Tuscany.
Sweden(3): Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, Stettin.
Turkey(11): Belgrade, Candia, Constantinople, Crimea, Damascus, Moldavia, Persia, Transylvania, Turkestan, Ukraine, Wallachia.

DEADLINE SCHEDULE: (all orders are due NLT 6PM CET (i.e. GMT+1)...not local time)





    o Fall 1655 Moves: TBA
 
MAP:

This message is in reply to post 15182:

Hi guys,

from what I gather, Jorge has communicated to you players separately his resigning from the game. He cited in his correspondence with me his dissatisfaction over Abo/Lake Ladoga.

Now, the current variant rules do state that Ingria works much as Denmark in Standard Diplomacy. That logically also entails that Abo functions much the same as Sweden does in Standard.

Hence, there are no coastal specifications for Abo on the big map I sent to all players upon starting the game. Realpolitik's adjucation output equally expressly does not list any coasts for Abo as a careful reading of the fall adjucation shows.

I recognise that the variant rules would benefit from a more explicit statement beyond pointing to the Denmark analogy. For what is obvious to a designer may not be to playtesters (a frequent phenomenon in the rules-writing process). Actually, pointing out such room for improvement is indeed to a large extent what playtesting's about and my variants have benefited from such helpful playtester input. I regret Jorge plainly doesn't share that outlook.

Jorge has equally reproached me for not clarifying this situation to him beforehand. However, as it so happens I did actually note at least once in a mail to him prior to game-start that:

"Systematically, [the addition of Lake Ladoga as a space] means that Karelia will have two coasts, whereas Abo will still only have one (much as Standard's Sweden despite a canal space touching it in the middle)."

I'm sorry Jorge no longer remembered that. In light of the extensive variant design discussions Jorge has participated in in the past, I was not aware of his erroneous assumption/lapse of memory. Otherwise I would have of course again stressed that point in my communications to him, much as I notify any player whenever I notice such an issue. I don't spot all such issues, but I do try.

Suffice to say that I consider these illegitimate grounds for abandoning a game and am sorely disappointed.

Now, this means I shall seek a Polish replacement. Once I've sent out this summer adjucation, I shall immediately contact DC's replacement list and advertise the position more generally on the site. Lets hope we shall have a replacement before long. As soon as a replacement has materialised, I shall set a new deadline that affords the new Pole sufficient time to negotiate.

My hope is we'll be back on track before to long.

Cheers,

Charles

----------
PLAYERS:
AUSTRIA: Mike Hoffman <mrh(at)panix.com>
DENMARK-NORWAY: Marc Ellinger <mellinger(at)blitzbardgett.com> (eliminated Winter 1653)
ENGLAND: Harvey Morris <hmtucaz(at)gmail.com>
FRANCE: Nigel Phillips <nephilli99(at)hotmail.com>
POLAND-LITHUANIA: TBA
RUSSIA: Mikael Johansson <m_don_j(at)hotmail.com> (eliminated Winter 1650)
SPAIN: Dirk Knemeyer <dirk(at)knemeyer.com>
SWEDEN: Matthew Kelly <kelly058(at)verizon.net> (joined Winter 1652)
TURKEY: Aidan Slattery <AiSlattery(at)aol.com>

PROCLAMATIONS:
o POLISH MONARCH FORSAKES HIS PEOPLE
o ENGLISH REPAIR TO FINLAND

PRESS: None. Sad

RETREATS:

England:
A Ingria - Abo









SUPPLY CENTER OWNERSHIP (Winter 1654):

Austria(5): Bavaria, Prague, Saxony, Trieste, Vienna.
England(Cool: Abo, Bristol, Christiania, Ireland, London, Scotland, Stockholm, United Provinces.
France(11): Brest, Flanders, Lorraine, Lower Saxony, Marseilles, Paris, Rhineland-Westphalia, Savoy, Swabia, Switzerland, Venice.
Poland-Lithuania(10): Copenhagen, Courland, Cracow, Moscow, Novgorod, Prussia, Riga, Vilna, Voronezh, Warsaw.
Spain(10): Algiers, Madrid, Mecklenburg, Morocco, Naples, Papal States, Portugal, Seville, Tunis, Tuscany.
Sweden(3): Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, Stettin.
Turkey(11): Belgrade, Candia, Constantinople, Crimea, Damascus, Moldavia, Persia, Transylvania, Turkestan, Ukraine, Wallachia.

DEADLINE SCHEDULE: (all orders are due NLT 6PM CET (i.e. GMT+1)...not local time)




o Fall 1655 Moves: TBA



MAP:

There are 4 Messages in this Thread:


1648 091010: Summer 1655 Retreats (charlesf) Mar 24, 04:42 pm

1648 091010: Summer 1655 Retreats (offdisc) Mar 24, 05:17 pm

1648 091010: Summer 1655 Retreats (charlesf) Mar 24, 05:57 pm

1648 091010: Summer 1655 Retreats (offdisc) Mar 24, 06:30 pm

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