I agree the game is drawn, and it is indeed a 4-way that unfortunately does not include me, but it's either someone forgetting or not bothering to vote, or it's one of the big 4 that wants to try to cut it down to 3, or try to solo.  Given it's 2 on 2, I doubt that's the case, but I cant say for sure.
 
If even a public vote cannot be "binding" what a public statement of yes vote can do, is prove that nobody is forgetting to vote, since if everyone votes yes in public and it still fails, then we KNOW that someone has deliberately changed their vote to a no.
 
I vote yes to the proposed.
 
-mike
Ethiopia
 


From: Andrew Tanner [mailto:damienthryn(at)gmail.com ([email]damienthryn(at)gmail.com[/email])]
Sent: Mon 4/27/2009 5:53 PM
To: Michael Sims
Cc: Diplomacy Gamemaster; Frank Bielschowsky; Hamish Williams; Ian Bond; Ian Shaw; Scott Hickey; dc190
Subject: Re: DC190 - Spring 2013



You're on.  Propose it, I'll vote for it, as I have done each time its come up - AND proposed in the past more than once.
 
Something you told me early on this game comes to mind - that if Persia and Russia are united and dominate Eurasia, no one will be able to stop them.  I don't think you are wrong - frankly I don't believe that anything I can do can seriously threaten Persia, even if I take every sea center bordering his centers.  Which is not my intent.  I wanted to hit YOU in IND, and that I'm there now only allows me to eliminate your last fleet for kicks without any difficulty. 
 
I'm doing now what I suggested in my press - we give the remaining small powers an incentive to actively propose and vote for draws.  I don't really think any of you is actually hoping to gain much out of killing a draw proposal, or is even actively voting no - abstention is the same as voting no by the current rules.  Even if no one is actually TRYING to kill the draw, just forgetting to vote means the same thing.  So why not put some pressure and provide some incentive to remember?  It worked in DC138, another game where I was accused of setting up to attack and go for a solo, and happily accepted a draw.  I'm not even ruling out someone playing this game with a different goal in mind than achiving the best statistical outcome.  I can see myself cheerfully stirring the pot while I was alive, just for kicks.  Heck, if that IS someone's plan, its working - Ian thinks I'm trying to attack him, and I'm sure Scott is having second thoughts about my intentions. 
 
So I took IND.  So what?  I can't keep it if I want to advance, and it can't go anywhere alone.  And DES?  Sure I could take it, and CON too, and probably JAK as part of the bargain!  Where does it get me?  As I've said before, even if one side or the other OWNS Africa outright, they can't break into the other side's home centers as long as the continental blocs stay true.  As a gesture of good faith, I will take NOTHING of Ian's this turn, even though (I'd thought) we agreed to let me have CON and I can take it at no cost if I so choose.  But I won't, if that helps prove I'm not just after some 'alibi'
 
This game's outcome is determined, unless Scott and I or Hamish and Ian fight.  Which isn't going to happen.  It will end in a 4 way draw.  I want it, and I will absolutely accept a binding public draw vote at any time.  I'll publicly post my orders and my vote each turn, if that helps.
 
Of course, I don't expect that it will.  You'll accuse me of scuttling the draw, or altering my submissions, and so on.  But I'll still do it.  This game is ending one of two ways regardless - everyone believes me and makes sure the small powers can't kill a draw, or they believe you and we spend the next however many months maneuvering into a nice, clear stalemate.  Heck, lets believe the both of us - lets vote publicly.  If it fails, then perhaps its time for a process of elimination.
 
Andrew

 
On 4/27/09, Michael Sims <mike(at)southwall.com ([email]mike(at)southwall.com[/email])> wrote: [quote:bc4ac7ab9c] Andrew you'd love that wouldnt you. 
 
It's the perfect alibi to speak so profoundly about how the game is drawn, all the while you're gaining ground in just about every ocean.  This turn is no exception.  Propose it again man, I'll vote for it, like I have every turn.  I'm in it for the survival here, and as I told the others, I'll accept a PUBLIC 4-way draw if you and everyone else so wanted to do so.  I'm guessing there would be a holdout to such a procedure, and it wouldn't be me.    Perhaps it would be someone w a little more to gain, like maybe the player who just gained multiple critical zones in the Atlantic and Indian Oceans.  Or maybe the player that's about to gain JAK and DES, to grow by two!  Wait they're the same person...
 
But you keep selling your story, I'm sure someone will buy it!
 
I will personally re-propose the 4-way draw of the 4 big players, and offer to you all to vote on it publicly, with the public votes being binding.  Now if you all want it, then speak up and take it, else we see who doesn't!
 
And Andrew, use some common sense here... what would I (or any of the small guys) POSSIBLY stand to gain by voting down a draw in this situation... with between 1 and 3 centers, it's just not lucrative to expect to come back and score better than a survival.  It's obviously in my best interests to not waste time on a game if I can end it, it would be dumb to vote it down.  Same thing with blue and yellow.
 
And if it's SERIOUSLY not you Andrew (which dont bother denying, it doesnt matter) then SOMEONE wants better than a draw out of this.  So let's go w the plan above and see who objects.  Yes?
-mike
 


From: Diplomacy Gamemaster [mailto:worldwidegm(at)gmail.com ([email]worldwidegm(at)gmail.com[/email])]
Sent: Mon 4/27/2009 2:34 PM
To: Andrew Tanner; Frank Bielschowsky; Hamish Williams; Ian Bond; Ian Shaw; Michael Sims; Scott Hickey
Cc: dc190; Steve Lytton
Subject: DC190 - Spring 2013

 
Press: SAm-All - So, do we have to start whacking the small guys to be sure they aren't (even inadvertently) killing the draw?  I want the draw, Mexico wants the draw, Russia wants the draw, and I bet Persia does as well.  Its in all our best interests.  That leaves someone stirring up trouble.  Perhaps we should all surround the remaining nations and make it in their best interest to support a draw as well?

Here are your moves for the spring of 2013.  The battle of Africa rages on and, well, not much else to my eyes.  But maybe there is more than meets the eye?  We have one retreat to resolve and then I'll be away until Friday, May 8.

Mexico:
A Paris - Rome (*fails*)
A Tombouctou - Algeria (*dislodged*)
A Ouagadougou - Niamey (*fails*)
F Iberia Supports A Florida - Morocco
F Canary Sea Convoys A Florida - Morocco
F Atlantic Ocean Convoys A Florida - Morocco
F Gulf of St. Lawrence - Halifax (*bounce*)
F Quebec - Halifax (*bounce*)
F Bermuda Supports F Atlantic Ocean
A Florida - Morocco
F Arizona - Pacific Ocean
F Pacific Ocean - Alaska
F Alaska - Nunavut
A Nunavut - Vancouver
F Revillagigedo Sea - Fijian Sea
F Jayapura - Philippines Sea
F Arafura Sea Supports F Cocos Sea - Jakarta (*void*)
F Darwin Holds

South America:
A Pretoria - Zambezi
A Maputo Supports A Pretoria - Zambezi
F Nosy Barrens - Zanzibar Sea (*fails*)
F Angola - Congo (*fails*)
F Falkland Sea - Sandwich Sea
F Dakar - Cape Verde Sea
F Argentina - Falkland Sea
F Cape of Good Hope - Cocos Sea
F Great Australian Bight Supports F Cape of Good Hope - Cocos Sea
F Cocos Sea - Indian Ocean
F South China Sea - Siam (*fails*)
F Bay of Bengal Supports F Cocos Sea - Indian Ocean
F Perth Supports F Cape of Good Hope - Cocos Sea

Russia:
F Beaufort Sea Supports F Bering Sea
F Labrador Sea Supports F English Channel
F English Channel Supports F Labrador Sea
A London Holds
A Holland Supports A Berlin
A Berlin Supports A Holland
F Arctic Ocean Supports F Labrador Sea
A Irkutsk - Vladivostok (*bounce*)
A Ulaanbaatar - Vladivostok (*bounce*)
A Beijing Holds
F Honshu Supports F East China Sea
F East China Sea Supports F Taiwan
F Taiwan Supports F East China Sea

West Africa:
F Lagos - Ougadougou (*fails*)
A Morocco - Tombouctou
A Algeria Supports A Morocco - Tombouctou

Persia:
A N'Djamena - Niamey
F Ionian Sea - Tyrrhenian Sea
F Tunisia Supports F Ionian Sea - Tyrrhenian Sea
A Rome - Paris (*fails*)
F Zagreb - Ionian Sea
A Libya Supports A N'Djamena - Niamey
A Tehran - Somalia
F Arabian Sea Convoys A Tehran - Somalia
A Baghdad - Tehran
A Mumbai - Delhi
F Pakistan - Mumbai
A Shanghai Supports A Hong Kong
A Hong Kong Supports A Shanghai
A Nairobi Supports A Dar es Salaam
A Congo Supports A Dar es Salaam
A Dar es Salaam Supports A Congo
F Zanzibar Sea Supports A Dar es Salaam (*cut*)

China:
F Indian Ocean - Antananarivo

Oceania:
F Siam Supports F Jakarta (*cut*)
F Jakarta Supports F Siam
F Manila Holds

Retreats:
Mexico's A Tombouctou may retreat to Dakar or OTB.

Next Deadline:
Scott, if you can get your retreat in tomorrow, I'll be able to get it out.  But a better alternative is if you just replay all with your retreat so everyone can know about it whether I have time to get to it or not.  So then, let's have the Fall 2013 orders due Saturday, May 9, and I'll adjudicate when I get back.