| Haven victory - offdisc (Oct 08, 2012, 3:12 pm) |
Apologies for the delay in sending this. It took a while to write, and then I sent it to the Haven game I am GMing. By accident of course, although I think it serves as a great example of how to write an EOG. 
Rogue EOG (DC394 Haven)
=======================
[I am writing this over a period of days, and am NOT reading other EOGs as they come in]
As
soon as the players were announced, I looked through my Dip history
(thanks Google for ALL the space!) to review past Haven games and judge
experience. A lot of newbies to Haven here, with some very good
experienced players as well. After the crushing turn of events in the
last Haven game -- I arranged an "experience v.s rookie" alliance, only
to have it fall apart halfway through by one player spilling the beans
-- I decided to play this game straight and true. I'd talk to everyone,
bring no prejudices forward, and just work the system.
I reached out to everyone and began judging my first path based on communication and strategy-sharing:
if you responded positively to an alliance, great
if you were wishy-washy, fence
if you ignored me, target
if you discussed strategy, great
if you told me about everything other people were saying, fence
No
real targets were apparant to me, and as Rogues, I am surrounded by
close neighbors, so "tread carefully" was my motto. That being said,
Knights and I began discussing an alliance from Day 1, and before the
first Spring moves were finished, we'd come to an agreement on sharing
info at least.
On the other hand, Penner/Faeries were designated for elimination -- I
know how good a player he is, and I wanted someone weaker than me as my
close neighbor. When I heard that Penner was calling me "tricky", his
fate was sealed. Rogue/Fairy alliances are fantastic when they work, but
they require ultimate trust and that's hard when we start out calling
each other "tricky". 
Centaurs, the unlucky ones, offered alliances to both Knights and
myself, which we accepted immediately with private messages describing
how we'd carve him up. But first, we get him running point against the
Barbs and causing unrest anywhere he could reach. As Centaurs pressed
forward, Brian would take out his backside.
Magicians were targetted first for being on the peninsula. Trolls/Mags,
coin flip, but Mags weren't as talkative as Trolls, so he goes first.
Also, first to admit inexperience with the board, and no one to use him
against, so his use to we was position and centers.
Trolls were designated for elimination also, based on sharing the
peninsula, and sealed when he talked about keeping an eye on Nomads and
their interesting position. Nomads are notoriously first out of Haven,
unless they find several friendly benefactors. Greg had shown his
inexperience with Haven, so I'd use him to hold off surprise attacks
from the Gnome while I take out the Magicians.
Pirates have usually shown themselves to be strong if given the chance
to expand, so I tried to organize people against him. Just passing info
along to Gnomes, Archers, anyone who would listen.
Ogres, I so looked forward to joining with them at some point, but alas, they were wiped out before that could take place.
Undead, Matthias and I have played against each other several times, but
with enough space between us, I thought we'd make a good team here.
The
Nomads, as weak as they are, still held a problem for me, being in TGR.
So I decided to make them an ally against non-existent enemies: Trolls
and Gnomes. If I kept Nomads focused and busy over there, then I'd be
able to neutralize the threat over here. Maybe even get them all
fighting, and clean up the remains.
And that was my strategy for most of the game: make one strong
alliance, and keep every other neighbor in different alliances against
one another. That strategy worked right up until the end, when I became a
bit too distracted/tired and gave in to Brian's request to reform the
KR alliance.
But even the one alliance (Knights) was pressured by
others from my hand -- starting with Faeries in 02, when I broke the
news to Penner that Knights were arranging with Archers to take him out.
I just couldn't let Brian grow that much faster than me. Hobbits fell
into that same maneuver later on. Pirates too, until they went AWOL on
me.
There were several times early on when I felt on the
brink of elimination, even through 02 & 03 while the Mags and Cents
fell. The turning point for me was 05 & 06, the attacks on Faeries
and Trolls. I was in talks with Gnomes and Knights, but also stirring
the pot between Trolls and Gnomes. Finally got to the point where they
both seemingly trusted me and might join forces, so I pushed Trolls
towards Undead to split his force and attacked. To Greg's credit, he
fought valiantly!
A bit of a Grand Alliance began with Knights, Hobbits, Pirates, and
Rogues. But from the K/R side, we were only pulling info. Then Pirates
got greedy, which allowed me to work with Gnomes, while planning with
Knights to take him out.
07 saw the disintegration of the Grand Alliance, and the Gnomes
cracked. Knights were expanding, so I began stirring up "Knight Solo"
talk, just in case. It was funny that I had several players convinced
that "26 or 30" was the magic number to Solo. But then "The Telethon to
Hand the Game to Knights" started, and Brian and I solidified our
alliance.
Things went smoothly from then until 12. We orchestrated a lot of
strife between Elves, Hobbits and Dwarves to keep them from growing. In
the meantime, we moved south together and kept our center counts close
to even. Hobbits and Dwarves expressed concern about Chris' movements,
so we slated him for demolition next.
There was a point, in 10 after getting 5 builds to his none, that I
considered stabbing Brian. I drew up a map and everything. At the same
time, I polled the group and discovered that everyone would vote YES to a
KR draw, providing certain other players were eliminated. Brian and I
could have forced a DIAS probably, but we decided to have some fun and
clean the board. For whatever reason, I chickened out of the stab --
possibly the stress in my life played a part, possibly the lack of any
other true allies. Whatever it was, THAT was probably my biggest
mistake.
Because then the Pirates disappeared and 3 turns later, Brian grabbed the centers and stabbed me!And
the rest of the game was a matter of gathering up everyone else to head
off the Knight Solo, while also trying to keep an opening for MY run to
either Solo or force Brian back into the 2-way. We eliminated Elves
easily enough. Hobbits were large enough to be standing up to some
ideas, so Dwarves and I worked to destabilize or eliminate him... at
least knock him down a peg or two -- and we succeeded without even
giving up much ground to Brian.
I don't know why Brian approached me about the
reforming the 2-way, but I took the bait. I tried hard to maneuver a
turn-over of centers to keep the board in balance, but I did make the
mistake of grabbing Dwarf centers before taking more of the Knight's.
Hobbits pulled straight back from Brian, and Jim moved right into my
centers, causing a great disparity between the center counts again. So
Brian broke ranks and ran for the crown.
Truth be told, I was simply waiting for my chance and would have done the same.
Fantastic
game everyone! Jim, you are correct -- I jumped the gun with my stab.
After playing so cautiously and pessimistically all game, I got antsy
and wanted to bring it to a quick end. I should have bided my time, 2
more years or so, and then I might have had a nice run for glory.
---------
"Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson[Reply] |
| Rogue EOG - offdisc (Oct 08, 2012, 3:10 pm) |
No wonder no one from the game has commented on this!
But take this as a lesson --- EOGs are not required, but expected and highly valued. The below was an example of a well-thought-out EOG, full of details on early expectations and developments. A prime piece of writing, if I may say so myself.
Mike
---------
"Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Dance.scholar <dance.scholar(at)gmail.com> wrote:
But not for this game, right?
Sent from my Phone
On Oct 8, 2012, at 1:22 AM, Mike Hoffman <mrh(at)panix.com> wrote:
> Rogue EOG (DC394 Haven)
> =======================
> [I am writing this over a period of days, and am NOT reading other EOGs as they come in]
> As soon as the players were announced, I looked through my Dip history (thanks Google for ALL the space!) to review past Haven games and judge experience. A lot of newbies to Haven here, with some very good experienced players as well. After the crushing turn of events in the last Haven game -- I arranged an "experience v.s rookie" alliance, only to have it fall apart halfway through by one player spilling the beans -- I decided to play this game straight and true. I'd talk to everyone, bring no prejudices forward, and just work the system.
> I reached out to everyone and began judging my first path based on communication and strategy-sharing:
> if you responded positively to an alliance, great
> if you were wishy-washy, fence
> if you ignored me, target
> if you discussed strategy, great
> if you told me about everything other people were saying, fence
>
> No real targets were apparant to me, and as Rogues, I am surrounded by close neighbors, so "tread carefully" was my motto. That being said, Knights and I began discussing an alliance from Day 1, and before the first Spring moves were finished, we'd come to an agreement on sharing info at least.
> On the other hand, Penner/Faeries were designated for elimination -- I know how good a player he is, and I wanted someone weaker than me as my close neighbor. When I heard that Penner was calling me "tricky", his fate was sealed. Rogue/Fairy alliances are fantastic when they work, but they require ultimate trust and that's hard when we start out calling each other "tricky".
> Centaurs, the unlucky ones, offered alliances to both Knights and myself, which we accepted immediately with private messages describing how we'd carve him up. But first, we get him running point against the Barbs and causing unrest anywhere he could reach. As Centaurs pressed forward, Brian would take out his backside.
> Magicians were targetted first for being on the peninsula. Trolls/Mags, coin flip, but Mags weren't as talkative as Trolls, so he goes first. Also, first to admit inexperience with the board, and no one to use him against, so his use to we was position and centers.
> Trolls were designated for elimination also, based on sharing the peninsula, and sealed when he talked about keeping an eye on Nomads and their interesting position. Nomads are notoriously first out of Haven, unless they find several friendly benefactors. Greg had shown his inexperience with Haven, so I'd use him to hold off surprise attacks from the Gnome while I take out the Magicians.
> Pirates have usually shown themselves to be strong if given the chance to expand, so I tried to organize people against him. Just passing info along to Gnomes, Archers, anyone who would listen.
> Ogres, I so looked forward to joining with them at some point, but alas, they were wiped out before that could take place.
> Undead, Matthias and I have played against each other several times, but with enough space between us, I thought we'd make a good team here.
> The Nomads, as weak as they are, still held a problem for me, being in TGR. So I decided to make them an ally against non-existent enemies: Trolls and Gnomes. If I kept Nomads focused and busy over there, then I'd be able to neutralize the threat over here. Maybe even get them all fighting, and clean up the remains.
>
> And that was my strategy for most of the game: make one strong alliance, and keep every other neighbor in different alliances against one another. That strategy worked right up until the end, when I became a bit too distracted/tired and gave in to Brian's request to reform the KR alliance.
>
> But even the one alliance (Knights) was pressured by others from my hand -- starting with Faeries in 02, when I broke the news to Penner that Knights were arranging with Archers to take him out. I just couldn't let Brian grow that much faster than me. Hobbits fell into that same maneuver later on. Pirates too, until they went AWOL on me.
>
> There were several times early on when I felt on the brink of elimination, even through 02 & 03 while the Mags and Cents fell. The turning point for me was 05 & 06, the attacks on Faeries and Trolls. I was in talks with Gnomes and Knights, but also stirring the pot between Trolls and Gnomes. Finally got to the point where they both seemingly trusted me and might join forces, so I pushed Trolls towards Undead to split his force and attacked. To Greg's credit, he fought valiantly!
> A bit of a Grand Alliance began with Knights, Hobbits, Pirates, and Rogues. But from the K/R side, we were only pulling info. Then Pirates got greedy, which allowed me to work with Gnomes, while planning with Knights to take him out.
> 07 saw the disintegration of the Grand Alliance, and the Gnomes cracked. Knights were expanding, so I began stirring up "Knight Solo" talk, just in case. It was funny that I had several players convinced that "26 or 30" was the magic number to Solo. But then "The Telethon to Hand the Game to Knights" started, and Brian and I solidified our alliance.
> Things went smoothly from then until 12. We orchestrated a lot of strife between Elves, Hobbits and Dwarves to keep them from growing. In the meantime, we moved south together and kept our center counts close to even. Hobbits and Dwarves expressed concern about Chris' movements, so we slated him for demolition next.
> There was a point, in 10 after getting 5 builds to his none, that I considered stabbing Brian. I drew up a map and everything. At the same time, I polled the group and discovered that everyone would vote YES to a KR draw, providing certain other players were eliminated. Brian and I could have forced a DIAS probably, but we decided to have some fun and clean the board. For whatever reason, I chickened out of the stab -- possibly the stress in my life played a part, possibly the lack of any other true allies. Whatever it was, THAT was probably my biggest mistake.
> Because then the Pirates disappeared and 3 turns later, Brian grabbed the centers and stabbed me!
> And the rest of the game was a matter of gathering up everyone else to head off the Knight Solo, while also trying to keep an opening for MY run to either Solo or force Brian back into the 2-way. We eliminated Elves easily enough. Hobbits were large enough to be standing up to some ideas, so Dwarves and I worked to destabilize or eliminate him... at least knock him down a peg or two -- and we succeeded without even giving up much ground to Brian.
>
> I don't know why Brian approached me about the reforming the 2-way, but I took the bait. I tried hard to maneuver a turn-over of centers to keep the board in balance, but I did make the mistake of grabbing Dwarf centers before taking more of the Knight's. Hobbits pulled straight back from Brian, and Jim moved right into my centers, causing a great disparity between the center counts again. So Brian broke ranks and ran for the crown.
> Truth be told, I was simply waiting for my chance and would have done the same.
>
> Fantastic game everyone! Jim, you are correct -- I jumped the gun with my stab. After playing so cautiously and pessimistically all game, I got antsy and wanted to bring it to a quick end. I should have bided my time, 2 more years or so, and then I might have had a nice run for glory.
>
>
>
>
> ---------
> "Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
> "Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
>[Reply] |
| Rogue EOG - offdisc (Oct 08, 2012, 12:22 am) |
Rogue EOG (DC394 Haven)
=======================[I am writing this over a period of days, and am NOT reading other EOGs as they come in]
As soon as the players were announced, I looked through my Dip history (thanks Google for ALL the space!) to review past Haven games and judge experience. A lot of newbies to Haven here, with some very good experienced players as well. After the crushing turn of events in the last Haven game -- I arranged an "experience v.s rookie" alliance, only to have it fall apart halfway through by one player spilling the beans -- I decided to play this game straight and true. I'd talk to everyone, bring no prejudices forward, and just work the system.
I reached out to everyone and began judging my first path based on communication and strategy-sharing:
if you responded positively to an alliance, great
if you were wishy-washy, fence
if you ignored me, target
if you discussed strategy, great
if you told me about everything other people were saying, fence
No real targets were apparant to me, and as Rogues, I am surrounded by close neighbors, so "tread carefully" was my motto. That being said, Knights and I began discussing an alliance from Day 1, and before the first Spring moves were finished, we'd come to an agreement on sharing info at least.
On the other hand, Penner/Faeries were designated for elimination -- I know how good a player he is, and I wanted someone weaker than me as my close neighbor. When I heard that Penner was calling me "tricky", his fate was sealed. Rogue/Fairy alliances are fantastic when they work, but they require ultimate trust and that's hard when we start out calling each other "tricky".
Centaurs, the unlucky ones, offered alliances to both Knights and myself, which we accepted immediately with private messages describing how we'd carve him up. But first, we get him running point against the Barbs and causing unrest anywhere he could reach. As Centaurs pressed forward, Brian would take out his backside.
Magicians were targetted first for being on the peninsula. Trolls/Mags, coin flip, but Mags weren't as talkative as Trolls, so he goes first. Also, first to admit inexperience with the board, and no one to use him against, so his use to we was position and centers.
Trolls were designated for elimination also, based on sharing the peninsula, and sealed when he talked about keeping an eye on Nomads and their interesting position. Nomads are notoriously first out of Haven, unless they find several friendly benefactors. Greg had shown his inexperience with Haven, so I'd use him to hold off surprise attacks from the Gnome while I take out the Magicians.
Pirates have usually shown themselves to be strong if given the chance to expand, so I tried to organize people against him. Just passing info along to Gnomes, Archers, anyone who would listen.
Ogres, I so looked forward to joining with them at some point, but alas, they were wiped out before that could take place.
Undead, Matthias and I have played against each other several times, but with enough space between us, I thought we'd make a good team here.
The Nomads, as weak as they are, still held a problem for me, being in TGR. So I decided to make them an ally against non-existent enemies: Trolls and Gnomes. If I kept Nomads focused and busy over there, then I'd be able to neutralize the threat over here. Maybe even get them all fighting, and clean up the remains.
And that was my strategy for most of the game: make one strong alliance, and keep every other neighbor in different alliances against one another. That strategy worked right up until the end, when I became a bit too distracted/tired and gave in to Brian's request to reform the KR alliance.
But even the one alliance (Knights) was pressured by others from my hand -- starting with Faeries in 02, when I broke the news to Penner that Knights were arranging with Archers to take him out. I just couldn't let Brian grow that much faster than me. Hobbits fell into that same maneuver later on. Pirates too, until they went AWOL on me.
There were several times early on when I felt on the brink of elimination, even through 02 & 03 while the Mags and Cents fell. The turning point for me was 05 & 06, the attacks on Faeries and Trolls. I was in talks with Gnomes and Knights, but also stirring the pot between Trolls and Gnomes. Finally got to the point where they both seemingly trusted me and might join forces, so I pushed Trolls towards Undead to split his force and attacked. To Greg's credit, he fought valiantly!
A bit of a Grand Alliance began with Knights, Hobbits, Pirates, and Rogues. But from the K/R side, we were only pulling info. Then Pirates got greedy, which allowed me to work with Gnomes, while planning with Knights to take him out.
07 saw the disintegration of the Grand Alliance, and the Gnomes cracked. Knights were expanding, so I began stirring up "Knight Solo" talk, just in case. It was funny that I had several players convinced that "26 or 30" was the magic number to Solo. But then "The Telethon to Hand the Game to Knights" started, and Brian and I solidified our alliance.
Things went smoothly from then until 12. We orchestrated a lot of strife between Elves, Hobbits and Dwarves to keep them from growing. In the meantime, we moved south together and kept our center counts close to even. Hobbits and Dwarves expressed concern about Chris' movements, so we slated him for demolition next.
There was a point, in 10 after getting 5 builds to his none, that I considered stabbing Brian. I drew up a map and everything. At the same time, I polled the group and discovered that everyone would vote YES to a KR draw, providing certain other players were eliminated. Brian and I could have forced a DIAS probably, but we decided to have some fun and clean the board. For whatever reason, I chickened out of the stab -- possibly the stress in my life played a part, possibly the lack of any other true allies. Whatever it was, THAT was probably my biggest mistake.
Because then the Pirates disappeared and 3 turns later, Brian grabbed the centers and stabbed me!And the rest of the game was a matter of gathering up everyone else to head off the Knight Solo, while also trying to keep an opening for MY run to either Solo or force Brian back into the 2-way. We eliminated Elves easily enough. Hobbits were large enough to be standing up to some ideas, so Dwarves and I worked to destabilize or eliminate him... at least knock him down a peg or two -- and we succeeded without even giving up much ground to Brian.
I don't know why Brian approached me about the reforming the 2-way, but I took the bait. I tried hard to maneuver a turn-over of centers to keep the board in balance, but I did make the mistake of grabbing Dwarf centers before taking more of the Knight's. Hobbits pulled straight back from Brian, and Jim moved right into my centers, causing a great disparity between the center counts again. So Brian broke ranks and ran for the crown.
Truth be told, I was simply waiting for my chance and would have done the same.
Fantastic game everyone! Jim, you are correct -- I jumped the gun with my stab. After playing so cautiously and pessimistically all game, I got antsy and wanted to bring it to a quick end. I should have bided my time, 2 more years or so, and then I might have had a nice run for glory.
---------
"Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson[Reply] |
| Rogue EOG (dc406) offdisc Oct 08, 03:10 pm |
No wonder no one from the game has commented on this!
But take this as a lesson --- EOGs are not required, but expected and highly valued. The below was an example of a well-thought-out EOG, full of details on early expectations and developments. A prime piece of writing, if I may say so myself.
Mike
---------
"Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Dance.scholar <dance.scholar(at)gmail.com> wrote:
But not for this game, right?
Sent from my Phone
On Oct 8, 2012, at 1:22 AM, Mike Hoffman <mrh(at)panix.com> wrote:
> Rogue EOG (DC394 Haven)
> =======================
> [I am writing this over a period of days, and am NOT reading other EOGs as they come in]
> As soon as the players were announced, I looked through my Dip history (thanks Google for ALL the space!) to review past Haven games and judge experience. A lot of newbies to Haven here, with some very good experienced players as well. After the crushing turn of events in the last Haven game -- I arranged an "experience v.s rookie" alliance, only to have it fall apart halfway through by one player spilling the beans -- I decided to play this game straight and true. I'd talk to everyone, bring no prejudices forward, and just work the system.
> I reached out to everyone and began judging my first path based on communication and strategy-sharing:
> if you responded positively to an alliance, great
> if you were wishy-washy, fence
> if you ignored me, target
> if you discussed strategy, great
> if you told me about everything other people were saying, fence
>
> No real targets were apparant to me, and as Rogues, I am surrounded by close neighbors, so "tread carefully" was my motto. That being said, Knights and I began discussing an alliance from Day 1, and before the first Spring moves were finished, we'd come to an agreement on sharing info at least.
> On the other hand, Penner/Faeries were designated for elimination -- I know how good a player he is, and I wanted someone weaker than me as my close neighbor. When I heard that Penner was calling me "tricky", his fate was sealed. Rogue/Fairy alliances are fantastic when they work, but they require ultimate trust and that's hard when we start out calling each other "tricky".
> Centaurs, the unlucky ones, offered alliances to both Knights and myself, which we accepted immediately with private messages describing how we'd carve him up. But first, we get him running point against the Barbs and causing unrest anywhere he could reach. As Centaurs pressed forward, Brian would take out his backside.
> Magicians were targetted first for being on the peninsula. Trolls/Mags, coin flip, but Mags weren't as talkative as Trolls, so he goes first. Also, first to admit inexperience with the board, and no one to use him against, so his use to we was position and centers.
> Trolls were designated for elimination also, based on sharing the peninsula, and sealed when he talked about keeping an eye on Nomads and their interesting position. Nomads are notoriously first out of Haven, unless they find several friendly benefactors. Greg had shown his inexperience with Haven, so I'd use him to hold off surprise attacks from the Gnome while I take out the Magicians.
> Pirates have usually shown themselves to be strong if given the chance to expand, so I tried to organize people against him. Just passing info along to Gnomes, Archers, anyone who would listen.
> Ogres, I so looked forward to joining with them at some point, but alas, they were wiped out before that could take place.
> Undead, Matthias and I have played against each other several times, but with enough space between us, I thought we'd make a good team here.
> The Nomads, as weak as they are, still held a problem for me, being in TGR. So I decided to make them an ally against non-existent enemies: Trolls and Gnomes. If I kept Nomads focused and busy over there, then I'd be able to neutralize the threat over here. Maybe even get them all fighting, and clean up the remains.
>
> And that was my strategy for most of the game: make one strong alliance, and keep every other neighbor in different alliances against one another. That strategy worked right up until the end, when I became a bit too distracted/tired and gave in to Brian's request to reform the KR alliance.
>
> But even the one alliance (Knights) was pressured by others from my hand -- starting with Faeries in 02, when I broke the news to Penner that Knights were arranging with Archers to take him out. I just couldn't let Brian grow that much faster than me. Hobbits fell into that same maneuver later on. Pirates too, until they went AWOL on me.
>
> There were several times early on when I felt on the brink of elimination, even through 02 & 03 while the Mags and Cents fell. The turning point for me was 05 & 06, the attacks on Faeries and Trolls. I was in talks with Gnomes and Knights, but also stirring the pot between Trolls and Gnomes. Finally got to the point where they both seemingly trusted me and might join forces, so I pushed Trolls towards Undead to split his force and attacked. To Greg's credit, he fought valiantly!
> A bit of a Grand Alliance began with Knights, Hobbits, Pirates, and Rogues. But from the K/R side, we were only pulling info. Then Pirates got greedy, which allowed me to work with Gnomes, while planning with Knights to take him out.
> 07 saw the disintegration of the Grand Alliance, and the Gnomes cracked. Knights were expanding, so I began stirring up "Knight Solo" talk, just in case. It was funny that I had several players convinced that "26 or 30" was the magic number to Solo. But then "The Telethon to Hand the Game to Knights" started, and Brian and I solidified our alliance.
> Things went smoothly from then until 12. We orchestrated a lot of strife between Elves, Hobbits and Dwarves to keep them from growing. In the meantime, we moved south together and kept our center counts close to even. Hobbits and Dwarves expressed concern about Chris' movements, so we slated him for demolition next.
> There was a point, in 10 after getting 5 builds to his none, that I considered stabbing Brian. I drew up a map and everything. At the same time, I polled the group and discovered that everyone would vote YES to a KR draw, providing certain other players were eliminated. Brian and I could have forced a DIAS probably, but we decided to have some fun and clean the board. For whatever reason, I chickened out of the stab -- possibly the stress in my life played a part, possibly the lack of any other true allies. Whatever it was, THAT was probably my biggest mistake.
> Because then the Pirates disappeared and 3 turns later, Brian grabbed the centers and stabbed me!
> And the rest of the game was a matter of gathering up everyone else to head off the Knight Solo, while also trying to keep an opening for MY run to either Solo or force Brian back into the 2-way. We eliminated Elves easily enough. Hobbits were large enough to be standing up to some ideas, so Dwarves and I worked to destabilize or eliminate him... at least knock him down a peg or two -- and we succeeded without even giving up much ground to Brian.
>
> I don't know why Brian approached me about the reforming the 2-way, but I took the bait. I tried hard to maneuver a turn-over of centers to keep the board in balance, but I did make the mistake of grabbing Dwarf centers before taking more of the Knight's. Hobbits pulled straight back from Brian, and Jim moved right into my centers, causing a great disparity between the center counts again. So Brian broke ranks and ran for the crown.
> Truth be told, I was simply waiting for my chance and would have done the same.
>
> Fantastic game everyone! Jim, you are correct -- I jumped the gun with my stab. After playing so cautiously and pessimistically all game, I got antsy and wanted to bring it to a quick end. I should have bided my time, 2 more years or so, and then I might have had a nice run for glory.
>
>
>
>
> ---------
> "Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
> "Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
> |
| DC394 Wizard EOG - garry.bledsoe (Oct 07, 2012, 9:33 pm) |
Well, Wizards are beings of little retrospection and little duration of life, although I am not sure that the first isn't really the result of the second in this case.
Unfortunately my game was short and was pretty much decided in Year 1. I have a new appreciation for the odd position of the Wizards now for sure. It is imperative to stay "safe" and I didn't do that. I guess I was a bit worried about securing an alliance early and thought I did but chose poorly as it turns out. I probably should have spent more time shoring up a different alliance (either with the Sams, Elves or Nomads). Alas I chose the Hobbits and Joe. I have played with Joe several times before and I guess that should have made we wary but I like working with Joe and chose to trust him. A well-played quick stab that took a home center pretty much ended my hopes in the game. Once I lost a home center and was ill-positioned he had the upper hand.
I managed to negotiate a little truce with Chris as a minor ally to push back the Hobbits (more out of spite than anything). And I guess I had to do something to try to live and convincing Chris that Joe was a threat was my only real hope - I didn't see any chance that Joe would back off. Fortunately I managed a brilliant attack but really it meant that I had to completely trust Chris to keep me alive. I figured that long term it was living on a prayer and that proved to be true. Such is the plight of a smaller power in Haven ultimately. Alas it means that I didn't get to talk to many in the game. Looked interesting for sure and congrats to the Knights.
I enjoyed playing with Chris and hope to get to play with him again (all stab aside). Joe - well done and we'll try again maybe.
Thanks as always to Sims...I am beginning to love and hate Haven given my mixed bag of results. Having played the Knights successfully once I am not surprised that they were the power to ultimately pull the solo but it still takes an amazing play to do so.
Not so magical Garry
Subject: Haven victory
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 07:34:05 -0500
From: mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com
To: diplomacy(at)diffell.net
CC: mvpenner(at)yahoo.com; baz.dip(at)gmail.com; dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com; chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; welsh_stroud(at)msn.com; kielmarch(at)hotmail.com; dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com; jerome777(at)ymail.com; jfburgess(at)gmail.com; wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com; mjn82(at)yahoo.com; mrh(at)panix.com; sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com; Spinozas(at)gmx.net; kingkovas(at)gmail.com; clockheardt(at)yahoo.com; tiga124(at)aol.com; tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net; dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com; clockheardt(at)yahoo.com
Re: dc394 s19 results!
This is it! Game over! Congrats Brian...
Catapulting to 55 suppy centers with only 52 needed to win, the Knights take this one to the record books. Longest game (20 years) and first solo victory... So. What do you have to say for yourselves? EOG's! From everyone! Even those little guys who got killed early on...
Some interesting stats at the end...
Supply Center Chart: http://www.diplomaticcorp.com/country_stats.php?type=game&game_id=dc394
New Trend Chart for Haven results: http://www.diplomaticcorp.com/country_stats.php?map=Haven&chart=Column3D
NEXT: Nothing! No orders due! Take a breather. But the next Haven game is already open to join... http://www.diplomaticcorp.com/game_page.php?game_id=re004
Do y'all even wanna see the results? It's pretty much Knights all over the place while everyone else takes a bath. Not a pretty picture... but just for the visual, we'll attach a final map and some moves...
Some RETREATS that don't matter...
Dwarves:
A Valley of Lost Honor - Marshes of Morva
Rogues:
F The Neverwood - PIRATE SHOALS
F Pans Labyrinth - The High Way
A The Silver city - Moominvalley
F Sorrows End - THON THALAS
F NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN - RUGGED COAST
ORDERS
Dwarves:
A Lindon Supports A Undermountain - Nowwhat
A Lubrick - Knockshegowna
A Whoville Hold
A Valley of Lost Honor - Garthim (*Dislodged*)
F Powry - Lubrick
A Ogrun - Nehwon (*Fails*)
A Marshes of Morva - Gelfling
A Thra - Silvanesti
Hobbits:
F Mordor - Candlekeep
A Rohan - Two Towers
A Waterdeep - City of Splendors
A Krikkit Supports A The Wilderland - Nowwhat
A The Wilderland - Nowwhat (*Fails*)
F Yuirwood Supports F Mordor - Candlekeep (*Fails*)
F Rivendell - SEA OF FALLEN STARS
F Far Far Away - Never Never Land (*Fails*)
F GULF OF LUHN - Baldurs Gate
F SEA OF FALLEN STARS - Enchanted Isles
Knights:
A Grissel - Orboros
A Mount Nimro Hold
A Vinyaya - Acme Acres
F Ella - NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN
A Newa River Supports A Troldhaugen - Cave of Ordeals
A Riku Hold
A Grimheim - Ashan (*Bounce*)
A Troldhaugen - Cave of Ordeals
A Orboros - The Silver city
A Devils Canyon - Traal
A Candlekeep - Waterdeep
A Travers Town Supports A Maze of Regrets - The Neverwood
F Slightly Gulch Hold
F Dimmsdale Hold
A Cave of Ordeals - Sorrows End
F Abby Normal Supports A Cave of Ordeals - Sorrows End
A Hoarluk - Fafhrd
F Kara-Tur Supports A Candlekeep - Waterdeep
A Parce Pass Supports A Groves of Academe - Pans Labyrinth
A Camelittle Hold
A Maze of Regrets - The Neverwood
A Endor - Cliffs of Insanity
A Groves of Academe - Pans Labyrinth
A Daisy Meadows Supports F Dimmsdale
A Cliffs of Insanity - Myth Drannor
A Khaz Modan - Temple of Doom
A Carpantha Supports A Mount Nimro
A Twisted Tunnels - Devils Canyon
A Snow Witch Supports A Twisted Tunnels - Devils Canyon
A Undermountain - Nowwhat
A Venatori Umbrarum Supports A Undermountain - Nowwhat
F SUNLESS SEA Supports A Grissel - Orboros
F BEAVERSDAM Supports A Orboros - The Silver city
F TILVA STRAIT Supports A Grimheim - Ashan (*Cut*)
F TROG BOG - Pygmy (*Fails*)
F GRIEF REEF Convoys A Groves of Academe - Pans Labyrinth
F MERMAIDS LAGOON Convoys A Groves of Academe - Pans Labyrinth
F EAST MIRIANIC OCEAN Supports F RUGGED COAST - Gumdrop Isle
F CHOCOLATE RIVER Supports F Ella - NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN
F RUGGED COAST - Gumdrop Isle
F RIFT CANYON Supports A Cliffs of Insanity - Myth Drannor
F RESTLESS WATERS Supports F PIRATE SHOALS - Land Ho
F PIRATE SHOALS - Land Ho
Rogues:
F Garthim Supports A Cormyr - Valley of Lost Honor
A Nehwon Supports A Heresh - Devils Canyon (*Cut*)
F The Neverwood Hold (*Dislodged*)
F Pans Labyrinth - Rivendell (*Dislodged*)
A The Silver city Supports F POOL OF RADIANCE - Ashan (*Dislodged*)
F Ashan - Grimheim (*Fails*)
F Sorrows End Supports F TROG BOG - THON THALAS (*Dislodged*)
A Kahvi Hold
F Land Ho - GULF OF LUHN
F Never Never Land Supports F HIGH SEAS - WAY THE HECK (*Cut*)
F Myth Drannor - Port Ghaast (*Disbanded*)
F Great Glacier - RIVER OF THE DAWN (*Fails*)
A Zhentil Keep Hold
F The Old Gristmill - Dhunia
A Pygmy Supports A The Silver city (*Cut*)
A Walk of Clouds Supports F NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN - Dimmsdale
A Palmaris - Timberlands
A Sinking Shore - Prekkendorran Hts
A Heresh - Devils Canyon (*Fails*)
A Cormyr - Valley of Lost Honor
F Port Ghaast - Gumdrop Isle (*Fails*)
A Pwyll - Myth Drannor (*Fails*)
F POOL OF RADIANCE - Ashan (*Bounce*)
F HIGH SEAS - WAY THE HECK
F EAST SEA OF SHADOWS - WEST SEA OF SHADOWS
F THUNDERHEAD - Merrow
F SAVAGE SEA - THUNDERHEAD
F ZEBOIMS DEEP - The Old Gristmill
F CHURNING REACH Convoys A Pwyll - Myth Drannor
F WEST MIRIANIC OCEAN - TILVA STRAIT (*Fails*)
F NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN - Dimmsdale (*Dislodged*)
F RAZORS EDGE Supports F RESTLESS WATERS - Baldurs Gate (*Void*)
F RIVER OF THE DAWN - Waterdeep (*Fails*)
[Reply] |
| Winter 1909 Adjustments - Zoterik (Oct 07, 2012, 1:34 am) |
Perhaps a deadline extension was a bit hasty. I'm still getting used to this new time zone. Let it be known that for the first time, there is a new board leader as Italy overtakes Russia for the top spot. England is now officially eliminated as three great powers emerge, and although Germany and Turkey may yet have a crucial role to play, I am still collecting votes for the three-way F/I/R draw proposal.
Spring 1910 orders are due at 9:00pm CDT on 11 October, or 03:00 BST on 12 October.
FranceBuild F Brest
Build A Paris
ItalyBuild A Naples
TurkeyRemove F Ankara[Reply] |
| Winter 1909 Adjustments (dc428) Zoterik Oct 07, 01:34 am |
Perhaps a deadline extension was a bit hasty. I'm still getting used to this new time zone. Let it be known that for the first time, there is a new board leader as Italy overtakes Russia for the top spot. England is now officially eliminated as three great powers emerge, and although Germany and Turkey may yet have a crucial role to play, I am still collecting votes for the three-way F/I/R draw proposal.
Spring 1910 orders are due at 9:00pm CDT on 11 October, or 03:00 BST on 12 October.
FranceBuild F Brest
Build A Paris
ItalyBuild A Naples
TurkeyRemove F Ankara |
| Winter 1909 Adjustments - Zoterik (Oct 07, 2012, 1:34 am) |
Perhaps a deadline extension was a bit hasty. I'm still getting used to this new time zone. Let it be known that for the first time, there is a new board leader as Italy overtakes Russia for the top spot. England is now officially eliminated as three great powers emerge, and although Germany and Turkey may yet have a crucial role to play, I am still collecting votes for the three-way F/I/R draw proposal.
Spring 1910 orders are due at 9:00pm CDT on 11 October, or 03:00 BST on 12 October.
FranceBuild F Brest
Build A Paris
ItalyBuild A Naples
TurkeyRemove F Ankara[Reply] |
| DC435 - Update - important - Slangers (Oct 06, 2012, 11:14 am) |
Dear All
I am back in the UK and have my normal email up and running, please stick to this one in future. You're all very quiet this season. Lets do some negotiating!
Simon
Simon Langley-EvansProfessor of Human NutritionDeputy Head of School of BiosciencesUniversity of Nottingham
On Oct 5, 2012, at 9:20 PM, "Craig Connell" <cbconnell(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Just a quick note...
John Langley, playing England in our game, is taking a holiday for the next two weeks.
In his place, Mark Wheatley (mwpop22(at)googlemail.com) will be playing for John until October 22, 2012.
Please address emails to England to both John and Mark during this time.
Thank you Mark for filling in, and welcome to the game grid!
Craig Connell
This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may
contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error,
please send it back to me, and immediately delete it. Please do not use,
copy or disclose the information contained in this message or in any attachment.
Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily
reflect the views of the University of Nottingham.
This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an attachment
may still contain software viruses which could damage your computer system:
you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the
University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation.[Reply] |
| DC435 - Update - important - cbconnell (Oct 05, 2012, 3:19 pm) |
Just a quick note...
John Langley, playing England in our game, is taking a holiday for the next two weeks.
In his place, Mark Wheatley (mwpop22(at)googlemail.com) will be playing for John until October 22, 2012.
Please address emails to England to both John and Mark during this time.
Thank you Mark for filling in, and welcome to the game grid!
Craig Connell[Reply] |
| DC435 - Update - important (dc435) Slangers Oct 06, 11:14 am |
Dear All
I am back in the UK and have my normal email up and running, please stick to this one in future. You're all very quiet this season. Lets do some negotiating!
Simon
Simon Langley-EvansProfessor of Human NutritionDeputy Head of School of BiosciencesUniversity of Nottingham
On Oct 5, 2012, at 9:20 PM, "Craig Connell" <cbconnell(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Just a quick note...
John Langley, playing England in our game, is taking a holiday for the next two weeks.
In his place, Mark Wheatley (mwpop22(at)googlemail.com) will be playing for John until October 22, 2012.
Please address emails to England to both John and Mark during this time.
Thank you Mark for filling in, and welcome to the game grid!
Craig Connell
This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may
contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error,
please send it back to me, and immediately delete it. Please do not use,
copy or disclose the information contained in this message or in any attachment.
Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily
reflect the views of the University of Nottingham.
This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an attachment
may still contain software viruses which could damage your computer system:
you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the
University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation. |
| DC428 Fall 1909 - Zoterik (Oct 05, 2012, 5:18 am) |
I fear this is the end of the line for England, trapped in Lisbon by the French navy. F Portugal is dislodged and disbanded, and England can skip the Winter adjustments (if you want to continue receiving adjudications, let me know). The tide has also turned against Turkey, who lost two supply centers and now faces a disband while outflanked by the Italian navy. After a long period in which everything was very much at play, the game is quickly coalescing into a conflict of three super-powers. To that effect, a three-way draw has been proposed for France, Italy, and Russia. Submit your EoG votes along with your adjustments and orders over the next game year; the proposal will be valid until Winter 1910.
With both two dislodged units also disbanded, we jump over the Autumn into the Winter. Winter 1909 adjustments (given below the orders) are due at the 9:00pm CDT on 7 October, or 03:00 BST on 8 October.
England
F Portugal - Spain/sc (*disbanded*)
France
A Ruhr - Munich (*fails*)A Burgundy S A Ruhr - Munich
A Picardy - BelgiumF English Channel S A Picardy - Belgium
F Spain/sc S F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - PortugalF Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Portugal
F North Sea S Ger F Heligoland Bight - Denmark (*void*)
Germany
F Heligoland Bight - Denmark (*bounce*)
F Norway - Petersburg/nc (*bounce*)
Italy
A Tyrolia HoldsA Budapest S A ViennaA Vienna Holds
A Serbia S Rus A Galicia - RumaniaA Venice S A TyroliaF Aegean Sea - Bulgaria/sc
F Greece S F Aegean Sea - Bulgaria/scF Tyrrhenian Sea - Ionian SeaF Ionian Sea - Eastern Mediterranean
Russia
A Moscow - Sevastopol (*fails*)
A Ukraine S Galicia - RumaniaA Galicia - RumaniaA Bohemia S Munich
A Munich HoldsF Gulf of Bothnia - Petersburg/sc (*bounce*)A Sweden - Denmark (*bounce*)
A Holland S KielA Kiel S Munich
Turkey
A Bulgaria - Rumania (*disbanded*)
A Sevastopol S A Bulgaria - Rumania (*cut*)F Black Sea S A Bulgaria - RumaniaA Constantinople - Bulgaria (*fails*)
F Ankara - Constantinople (*fails*)F Smyrna - Aegean Sea
Adjustments:England: 0 (0)France: +2 (9)Germany: -1 (1)
Italy: +1 (10)Russia: +1 (10)Turkey: -1 (4)[Reply] |
| DC394 Knights EOG - chaosonejoe (Oct 04, 2012, 12:06 pm) |
Just a few comments from the Hobbitses:
My 'throw the game' situation was equal ruse and disgust with Mike's "I accidentally stabbed you" explanation. I understand having those sets of orders handy. During the times we tried to coordinate, there were a lot of last minute instructions, which tipped me off to some high level intrigues. It's easy to say now, but the KR arrangment was something I figured out and figured was nigh unstoppable.
(I'm just sensitive to the "I'll throw the game" public comments/strategy/retaliation and really find that approach about the worst way to game imaginable. Then again, I was willing to help pick a winner/pick against an opponent in the end. But there's a fine line there which I hope can be appreciated.)
The level of Elvish double-dealing is fascinating, but also explains why he survived as long as he did from the Hobbit onslaught
Mike's end-game approach was mystifying. Had he not spent 6 months telling us that we've invested too much to let one person win, only to say 'let us both win', it may have worked. Had he stabbed before the 'great interruptions' of moves/vacations/work, it may have worked. Had he stabbed a week or so later, it may have worked. But the 'stab while people are distracted' stoked the wrong kind of response.
I know I was convinced to some degree by Jim, but the sense of 'die trying' was foremost. Giving up meant voting for the draw.
Joe
From: "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; mrh(at)panix.com; Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; baz.dip(at)gmail.com; dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com; chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; welsh_stroud(at)msn.com; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com; Jerome Payne
<jerome777(at)ymail.com>; wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com; sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com; Spinozas(at)gmx.net; kingkovas(at)gmail.com; tiga124(at)aol.com; tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:33 AM
Subject: DC394 Knights EOG
Ok this is going to be long. I apologize in advance. Anyone who wasn't
involved until the end might find it boring. It???s been fantastic reading
everyone???s EOGs so far and I would like to respond to a couple of them when
I have some more time. I'm really excited about Mike Hoffman's EOG,
presumably coming soon!
Let me start by again thanking everyone in this game. It lasted forever,
but was by far the most entertaining dip game I???ve ever played ??? and I???m
only slightly biased because I won. This game had every
level of intrigue
and strategic depth you could want. During this EOG I???m going to reference
players by their Haven identities. It isn???t that I didn???t get used to
calling everybody by name ??? I just think it???s confusing to people who never
met each other in the game to read about other players by first name. I???ll
slip into first names if I???m describing the person???s play style or other
personal discussions.
My EOG is about critical inflection points ??? key moments in the game that
changed its trajectory. I want to highlight six such points from the
Knights perspective:
Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
Fall 13: The Great Stab
Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
1) Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Haven is a big complicated board. You have
to be able to discern about a
thousand tiny little names and figure out how everything connects. The
Barbarians could be forgiven for not recognizing immediately that Ice Reach
is literally the most important territory on the revised board. Look at
this space. It is a build center, has access to two sea zones and a river
that leads everywhere, possesses an impenetrable access point to the
Underground, and gives access to Dragons Teeth, which basically allows
whoever has Ice Reach to encircle the north continent before anyone even
knows what happened. Simply put: Ice Reach is the best center in the game
and the Barbarians gave it to me on turn 1 like the Indians gave up
Manhattan. By 03 I was literally alone in the Underground as the Dwarves
set off on other exploits. Capturing Diamond Mines from the Dwarves was
just a no-brainer. He had no way of wresting it from me and it
provided
the perfect cover for protecting my gem in Ice Reach and my path to Dragons
Teeth where I knew all my action was going to be in the coming fight with
the Faeries. By 03 I was firmly entrenched in the Underground and knew it
would be almost impossible to get me out of there unless somebody came at
me from above. Thus began a very long dance with the Dwarves that
eventually yielded the entire Underground and the keys to the game.
At the same time I was locking in pick-and-choose alliances with everybody
around me. I???ll digress and say that the Rogues and I hit it off
immediately. Mike (Rogues) has a fantastic strategic mind. I really
enjoyed those early-game strategy sessions, where we hatched the KR. Mike
led those sessions and I owe him a lot for focusing me and helping provide
a strategic design for the next 13 or so game years. It was a
fantastic
partnership. Mike put forward a lot of concepts and then we bantered about
specific plans. After one year the work product the Rogues and I were
producing together was clearly stronger than anything else I was
developing. The Centaurs were simultaneously organizing a pie-in-the-sky
KRCG, though the Gnomes were never very warm to it. There was also some
banter with the Nomads and Archers. But by 02 my sense is that both Mike
and I knew that the KR was going to rule the north.
2) Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
For awhile everyone in the north seemed to pretend like we could actually
play the game with nobody fighting anyone else north of the Faeries. But
everything in the north came to a head starting Spring 03. In one of my
few early game strategic designs where I excluded the Rogues, I engineered
a massive stab of the Centaurs along with
the Gnomes, which created a fait
accompli for the Rogues to join. Rogues weren???t thrilled and it was awful
to watch the Centaurs desperately try and save their KRCG project. They
were gone in two years. I simultaneously made a move against the Dwarves
and then settled things with him for quite some time while I solved above
ground matters. I actually think I hit the Archers that same turn. I was
a little nervous everything would unwind for me, but Mike and I just kept
rolling. We turned our attention to the Faeries and I have to admit ???
there was one turn there where Rogues left themselves completely open to a
stab, which I told the Faeries I was planning to exploit and almost did.
But the strategic relationship was too important. The Faeries and I ended
up stabbing each other simultaneously that turn, and Rogues came in to help
me clean them up.
The KR plan we hatched
in the first year had called for domination of the
central sea. We bulldozed the Faeries and had our fleets in the center by
06.
3) Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
The result of knocking out the Centaurs, otherwise known as the great
cheerleaders of the north, was a deeply uncomfortable situation where I was
playing peacemaker between the Gnomes and Rogues on either side of me. I
really liked working with the Gnomes. We had good dialogue, were always on
the same page, and he enabled me to force the Rogues??? hand in dealing with
the Centaurs. But the Gnomes were being attacked by the Trolls, to whom I
don???t think I spoke at all the entire game. And it was clear to everyone
that the Rogues were the Trolls??? benefactor. This was irritating because I
couldn???t care less about the Trolls. But as a result the Gnomes HATED the
Rogues. It was
extremely ugly. I had to keep promising the Gnomes that I
was really going to turn on the Rogues eventually ??? I came up with every
excuse in the book to delay it while the KR drove through the Faeries. I
have to hand it to Charlie (Gnomes) ??? he played a great game and I have to
assume he basically knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I
know deep down he suspected that the KR was rock solid, but he had
absolutely nowhere to else to go for friends. Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, and here he was, stuck in the middle with me. I
really respect Charlie as a player and hope to see him again in another
game soon. When it came, I didn???t execute perfectly and the Gnomes put up
a good fight. I had the Pirates in on it, though, and there was just no
way the Gnomes were going to survive us both. The key to all of this was
making sure the Rogues
moved against the Trolls first, so I protected
myself against the KR alliance coming undone at the wrong moment.
Ultimately it all came together nicely.
4) 09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
I hadn???t spent a lot of time interacting with the Pirates or really most
of the other powers outside my immediate vicinity. My squabbles and
ultimate settlement with the Dwarves had brought me into contact with the
Elves, who were clearly (as Jim-Bob the Dwarf has said in his EOG) acting
as the Dwarves??? chief advisor. I engaged the Pirates in my plan against
the Gnomes and I think we worked well together for a time. Meanwhile, there
was a growing sense between the Rogues and me that the PH alliance was the
strongest on the board. Rogues were deeply concerned that my work with the
Pirates against the Gnomes was going to eliminate a buffer between us and
give the Pirate too
much growth potential. He was probably right. The
Gnomes were the only power besides the Hobbits that the Pirates could
attack and I was providing him that window rather than making him choose
for himself.
The Rogues and I engaged the PH alliance in talk of a grand partnership.
I don???t know whether this was ever a serious discussion or not. We all
flirted on email a little, but I think this all happened over Christmas
when there was a serious game lull. On the other end of that lull, the PH
inexplicably blew up over circumstances I absolutely never figured out and
then the Pirates simply imploded. You all witnessed it so I won???t go into
details here, but it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that this
was a HUGE boon for me. I would be surprised if any of us see Tom in
another game. It???s a disappointment when anyone leaves the game, but this
left a big
hole and even though I benefitted from it, it was a shame that
happened here.
5) Fall 13: The Great Stab
The KR could have cruised to victory. I mopped up the Gnomes and split
the Pirate centers with the Hobbits about 60-40, while Rogues finished up
with the Trolls and Leprechauns. Meanwhile I hit the Dwarves hard
Underground and eventually we stalemated down there. This is the moment
Jim mentioned regarding his lack of understanding of the map. I also don???t
quite know when I noticed it, but at some key moment I definitely noticed
none of his supports were crossing through the jump points, though I had
been focusing on his center where he was focusing his supports. I decided
to hit him really hard on the end points and I shattered him. I didn???t
realize he didn???t see the crossover arrows ??? I just thought he was getting
predictable so I changed
patterns and ouila. But obviously he hadn???t seen
the defense options. Regardless, by this point everybody knew that the KR
could impose its will on the board.
But rolling the Dwarves meant that a stab of the Rogues was suddenly
possible. Rogues and I could have hit each other a lot of different times
over the years and we had slipped into a pretty good pattern of trust,
trading centers to keep things clean, and keeping our counts about even.
When I rolled up the Underground, that balance seemed to change. The
decision to hit the Rogues was the hardest Diplomacy move I???ve ever made.
We were really an unstoppable team, had great strategic chemistry, and I
think we balanced out one another???s weaknesses in a lot of ways. I sent in
a regular set of agreed-upon KR orders and on a whim, drafted the stab
orders at lunch on the day of the deadline, just as a spare time what-if
(this
strategic inflection point owes itself to the fact that Congress was
in recess that week). When I pulled the trigger and sent the stab orders
to Sims, it actually made me queasy. Mike invested A LOT of time in our
strategy sessions and I knew this would hurt.
After he removed himself from the ceiling, Mike emailed me to say that if
I ever wanted to rebuild the KR, all I had to do was let him know and we
would go back to where we left off. He said this again multiple times as
the game ground on. This became relevant later.
The game result was total mayhem as Rogues moved to rally support around
stopping me. There were only five of us on the board at this point and I
knew I had to move quickly to take advantage of the weak Rogue position and
the total discombobulation of all his prospective partners. Much has been
said about the chaos in the south, but this situation brought out all
of
its neuroses, which Mike evidently added to with his mildly spastic
leadership style. Winning outright was going to be hard, though I had a
path. My strategic goal was to create an air of inevitability around my
victory and simply demoralize everybody other than Mike into not caring
what happened in the game. It almost worked. I have to give Mike a lot of
credit for rallying everybody and playing a double game against the Elves,
which cost me a clean win around Year 14/15. The Elves had apparently
grown disenchanted with Rogue leadership and attempted the most ham-handed
game-throwing exercise I???ve ever seen. Meanwhile he was being played and
eaten alive by the other three coalition members. That hurt me because I
trusted the Elves for one turn too long and made some bad moves on his
advice. Rogues were by then steadying the ship and I made a couple of
overreach plays
in an effort to grab too many Rogue home centers at once,
which allowed him to reinforce some. Then the Hobbits mysteriously grew
disenchanted with the Rogues as well and started making noises about
throwing the game. Once again, I crazily went along with this until Rogues
snapped him back into place and I was left totally out of position. The
result was a long stalemate.
6) Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
The problem with the game at this point was it was really lonely. I would
sit down the night before every deadline with nobody to talk to and what
seemed like about 700 units to sift through. Spring 19 was the
coalition???s best turn. They beat me everywhere. I had settled in at about
45 centers after peaking at around 47 or 48. It just wasn???t happening.
I decided to play the card the Rogues had dealt me when we first
parted
ways. I reached out to Rogues in an absolutely sincere effort to
reestablish the KR. My belief was that when they saw what was happening,
the Hobbits and Dwarves would immediately fold and vote for a draw. Why
wouldn???t they? Defeating them outright would take years and it would be
awful to play through. So I went into the KR Rapprochement fully intending
on a KR draw. I was very comfortable with it. It would have been a fitting
end.
But I think the Rogues were sort of responsible for what happened next.
Rather than responding to me cautiously and making me make the first moves
away from him, he infuriated the coalition members by going full bore on
them overnight (in fairness, this was partially in response to my
prediction that they would fold quickly). It may not have mattered, but a
lighter hand may have changed the human response to this. Jim-Bob is
made
of stern stuff and convinced the Hobbits that under no circumstances would
either of them vote for a draw. So that meant that the Rogues and I would
have to capture exactly 51 centers each in order to secure the KR. I was
actually still willing to play this out until I ???what-if???d??? a set of
game-winning moves the night before the F20 deadline. Rogues were
insisting I give him some centers to keep things even ??? perfectly logical.
But when I wrote out some sample orders, it was obvious I could win it all
at once. So I did, and stabbed the Rogues again. All alone with nobody to
talk to.[Reply] |
| DC394 Knights EOG - chaosonejoe (Oct 04, 2012, 12:06 pm) |
Just a few comments from the Hobbitses:
My 'throw the game' situation was equal ruse and disgust with Mike's "I accidentally stabbed you" explanation. I understand having those sets of orders handy. During the times we tried to coordinate, there were a lot of last minute instructions, which tipped me off to some high level intrigues. It's easy to say now, but the KR arrangment was something I figured out and figured was nigh unstoppable.
(I'm just sensitive to the "I'll throw the game" public comments/strategy/retaliation and really find that approach about the worst way to game imaginable. Then again, I was willing to help pick a winner/pick against an opponent in the end. But there's a fine line there which I hope can be appreciated.)
The level of Elvish double-dealing is fascinating, but also explains why he survived as long as he did from the Hobbit onslaught
Mike's end-game approach was mystifying. Had he not spent 6 months telling us that we've invested too much to let one person win, only to say 'let us both win', it may have worked. Had he stabbed before the 'great interruptions' of moves/vacations/work, it may have worked. Had he stabbed a week or so later, it may have worked. But the 'stab while people are distracted' stoked the wrong kind of response.
I know I was convinced to some degree by Jim, but the sense of 'die trying' was foremost. Giving up meant voting for the draw.
Joe
From: "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; mrh(at)panix.com; Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; baz.dip(at)gmail.com; dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com; chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; welsh_stroud(at)msn.com; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com; Jerome Payne
<jerome777(at)ymail.com>; wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com; sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com; Spinozas(at)gmx.net; kingkovas(at)gmail.com; tiga124(at)aol.com; tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:33 AM
Subject: DC394 Knights EOG
Ok this is going to be long. I apologize in advance. Anyone who wasn't
involved until the end might find it boring. It???s been fantastic reading
everyone???s EOGs so far and I would like to respond to a couple of them when
I have some more time. I'm really excited about Mike Hoffman's EOG,
presumably coming soon!
Let me start by again thanking everyone in this game. It lasted forever,
but was by far the most entertaining dip game I???ve ever played ??? and I???m
only slightly biased because I won. This game had every
level of intrigue
and strategic depth you could want. During this EOG I???m going to reference
players by their Haven identities. It isn???t that I didn???t get used to
calling everybody by name ??? I just think it???s confusing to people who never
met each other in the game to read about other players by first name. I???ll
slip into first names if I???m describing the person???s play style or other
personal discussions.
My EOG is about critical inflection points ??? key moments in the game that
changed its trajectory. I want to highlight six such points from the
Knights perspective:
Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
Fall 13: The Great Stab
Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
1) Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Haven is a big complicated board. You have
to be able to discern about a
thousand tiny little names and figure out how everything connects. The
Barbarians could be forgiven for not recognizing immediately that Ice Reach
is literally the most important territory on the revised board. Look at
this space. It is a build center, has access to two sea zones and a river
that leads everywhere, possesses an impenetrable access point to the
Underground, and gives access to Dragons Teeth, which basically allows
whoever has Ice Reach to encircle the north continent before anyone even
knows what happened. Simply put: Ice Reach is the best center in the game
and the Barbarians gave it to me on turn 1 like the Indians gave up
Manhattan. By 03 I was literally alone in the Underground as the Dwarves
set off on other exploits. Capturing Diamond Mines from the Dwarves was
just a no-brainer. He had no way of wresting it from me and it
provided
the perfect cover for protecting my gem in Ice Reach and my path to Dragons
Teeth where I knew all my action was going to be in the coming fight with
the Faeries. By 03 I was firmly entrenched in the Underground and knew it
would be almost impossible to get me out of there unless somebody came at
me from above. Thus began a very long dance with the Dwarves that
eventually yielded the entire Underground and the keys to the game.
At the same time I was locking in pick-and-choose alliances with everybody
around me. I???ll digress and say that the Rogues and I hit it off
immediately. Mike (Rogues) has a fantastic strategic mind. I really
enjoyed those early-game strategy sessions, where we hatched the KR. Mike
led those sessions and I owe him a lot for focusing me and helping provide
a strategic design for the next 13 or so game years. It was a
fantastic
partnership. Mike put forward a lot of concepts and then we bantered about
specific plans. After one year the work product the Rogues and I were
producing together was clearly stronger than anything else I was
developing. The Centaurs were simultaneously organizing a pie-in-the-sky
KRCG, though the Gnomes were never very warm to it. There was also some
banter with the Nomads and Archers. But by 02 my sense is that both Mike
and I knew that the KR was going to rule the north.
2) Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
For awhile everyone in the north seemed to pretend like we could actually
play the game with nobody fighting anyone else north of the Faeries. But
everything in the north came to a head starting Spring 03. In one of my
few early game strategic designs where I excluded the Rogues, I engineered
a massive stab of the Centaurs along with
the Gnomes, which created a fait
accompli for the Rogues to join. Rogues weren???t thrilled and it was awful
to watch the Centaurs desperately try and save their KRCG project. They
were gone in two years. I simultaneously made a move against the Dwarves
and then settled things with him for quite some time while I solved above
ground matters. I actually think I hit the Archers that same turn. I was
a little nervous everything would unwind for me, but Mike and I just kept
rolling. We turned our attention to the Faeries and I have to admit ???
there was one turn there where Rogues left themselves completely open to a
stab, which I told the Faeries I was planning to exploit and almost did.
But the strategic relationship was too important. The Faeries and I ended
up stabbing each other simultaneously that turn, and Rogues came in to help
me clean them up.
The KR plan we hatched
in the first year had called for domination of the
central sea. We bulldozed the Faeries and had our fleets in the center by
06.
3) Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
The result of knocking out the Centaurs, otherwise known as the great
cheerleaders of the north, was a deeply uncomfortable situation where I was
playing peacemaker between the Gnomes and Rogues on either side of me. I
really liked working with the Gnomes. We had good dialogue, were always on
the same page, and he enabled me to force the Rogues??? hand in dealing with
the Centaurs. But the Gnomes were being attacked by the Trolls, to whom I
don???t think I spoke at all the entire game. And it was clear to everyone
that the Rogues were the Trolls??? benefactor. This was irritating because I
couldn???t care less about the Trolls. But as a result the Gnomes HATED the
Rogues. It was
extremely ugly. I had to keep promising the Gnomes that I
was really going to turn on the Rogues eventually ??? I came up with every
excuse in the book to delay it while the KR drove through the Faeries. I
have to hand it to Charlie (Gnomes) ??? he played a great game and I have to
assume he basically knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I
know deep down he suspected that the KR was rock solid, but he had
absolutely nowhere to else to go for friends. Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, and here he was, stuck in the middle with me. I
really respect Charlie as a player and hope to see him again in another
game soon. When it came, I didn???t execute perfectly and the Gnomes put up
a good fight. I had the Pirates in on it, though, and there was just no
way the Gnomes were going to survive us both. The key to all of this was
making sure the Rogues
moved against the Trolls first, so I protected
myself against the KR alliance coming undone at the wrong moment.
Ultimately it all came together nicely.
4) 09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
I hadn???t spent a lot of time interacting with the Pirates or really most
of the other powers outside my immediate vicinity. My squabbles and
ultimate settlement with the Dwarves had brought me into contact with the
Elves, who were clearly (as Jim-Bob the Dwarf has said in his EOG) acting
as the Dwarves??? chief advisor. I engaged the Pirates in my plan against
the Gnomes and I think we worked well together for a time. Meanwhile, there
was a growing sense between the Rogues and me that the PH alliance was the
strongest on the board. Rogues were deeply concerned that my work with the
Pirates against the Gnomes was going to eliminate a buffer between us and
give the Pirate too
much growth potential. He was probably right. The
Gnomes were the only power besides the Hobbits that the Pirates could
attack and I was providing him that window rather than making him choose
for himself.
The Rogues and I engaged the PH alliance in talk of a grand partnership.
I don???t know whether this was ever a serious discussion or not. We all
flirted on email a little, but I think this all happened over Christmas
when there was a serious game lull. On the other end of that lull, the PH
inexplicably blew up over circumstances I absolutely never figured out and
then the Pirates simply imploded. You all witnessed it so I won???t go into
details here, but it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that this
was a HUGE boon for me. I would be surprised if any of us see Tom in
another game. It???s a disappointment when anyone leaves the game, but this
left a big
hole and even though I benefitted from it, it was a shame that
happened here.
5) Fall 13: The Great Stab
The KR could have cruised to victory. I mopped up the Gnomes and split
the Pirate centers with the Hobbits about 60-40, while Rogues finished up
with the Trolls and Leprechauns. Meanwhile I hit the Dwarves hard
Underground and eventually we stalemated down there. This is the moment
Jim mentioned regarding his lack of understanding of the map. I also don???t
quite know when I noticed it, but at some key moment I definitely noticed
none of his supports were crossing through the jump points, though I had
been focusing on his center where he was focusing his supports. I decided
to hit him really hard on the end points and I shattered him. I didn???t
realize he didn???t see the crossover arrows ??? I just thought he was getting
predictable so I changed
patterns and ouila. But obviously he hadn???t seen
the defense options. Regardless, by this point everybody knew that the KR
could impose its will on the board.
But rolling the Dwarves meant that a stab of the Rogues was suddenly
possible. Rogues and I could have hit each other a lot of different times
over the years and we had slipped into a pretty good pattern of trust,
trading centers to keep things clean, and keeping our counts about even.
When I rolled up the Underground, that balance seemed to change. The
decision to hit the Rogues was the hardest Diplomacy move I???ve ever made.
We were really an unstoppable team, had great strategic chemistry, and I
think we balanced out one another???s weaknesses in a lot of ways. I sent in
a regular set of agreed-upon KR orders and on a whim, drafted the stab
orders at lunch on the day of the deadline, just as a spare time what-if
(this
strategic inflection point owes itself to the fact that Congress was
in recess that week). When I pulled the trigger and sent the stab orders
to Sims, it actually made me queasy. Mike invested A LOT of time in our
strategy sessions and I knew this would hurt.
After he removed himself from the ceiling, Mike emailed me to say that if
I ever wanted to rebuild the KR, all I had to do was let him know and we
would go back to where we left off. He said this again multiple times as
the game ground on. This became relevant later.
The game result was total mayhem as Rogues moved to rally support around
stopping me. There were only five of us on the board at this point and I
knew I had to move quickly to take advantage of the weak Rogue position and
the total discombobulation of all his prospective partners. Much has been
said about the chaos in the south, but this situation brought out all
of
its neuroses, which Mike evidently added to with his mildly spastic
leadership style. Winning outright was going to be hard, though I had a
path. My strategic goal was to create an air of inevitability around my
victory and simply demoralize everybody other than Mike into not caring
what happened in the game. It almost worked. I have to give Mike a lot of
credit for rallying everybody and playing a double game against the Elves,
which cost me a clean win around Year 14/15. The Elves had apparently
grown disenchanted with Rogue leadership and attempted the most ham-handed
game-throwing exercise I???ve ever seen. Meanwhile he was being played and
eaten alive by the other three coalition members. That hurt me because I
trusted the Elves for one turn too long and made some bad moves on his
advice. Rogues were by then steadying the ship and I made a couple of
overreach plays
in an effort to grab too many Rogue home centers at once,
which allowed him to reinforce some. Then the Hobbits mysteriously grew
disenchanted with the Rogues as well and started making noises about
throwing the game. Once again, I crazily went along with this until Rogues
snapped him back into place and I was left totally out of position. The
result was a long stalemate.
6) Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
The problem with the game at this point was it was really lonely. I would
sit down the night before every deadline with nobody to talk to and what
seemed like about 700 units to sift through. Spring 19 was the
coalition???s best turn. They beat me everywhere. I had settled in at about
45 centers after peaking at around 47 or 48. It just wasn???t happening.
I decided to play the card the Rogues had dealt me when we first
parted
ways. I reached out to Rogues in an absolutely sincere effort to
reestablish the KR. My belief was that when they saw what was happening,
the Hobbits and Dwarves would immediately fold and vote for a draw. Why
wouldn???t they? Defeating them outright would take years and it would be
awful to play through. So I went into the KR Rapprochement fully intending
on a KR draw. I was very comfortable with it. It would have been a fitting
end.
But I think the Rogues were sort of responsible for what happened next.
Rather than responding to me cautiously and making me make the first moves
away from him, he infuriated the coalition members by going full bore on
them overnight (in fairness, this was partially in response to my
prediction that they would fold quickly). It may not have mattered, but a
lighter hand may have changed the human response to this. Jim-Bob is
made
of stern stuff and convinced the Hobbits that under no circumstances would
either of them vote for a draw. So that meant that the Rogues and I would
have to capture exactly 51 centers each in order to secure the KR. I was
actually still willing to play this out until I ???what-if???d??? a set of
game-winning moves the night before the F20 deadline. Rogues were
insisting I give him some centers to keep things even ??? perfectly logical.
But when I wrote out some sample orders, it was obvious I could win it all
at once. So I did, and stabbed the Rogues again. All alone with nobody to
talk to.[Reply] |
| DC394 Knights EOG - Viper (Oct 04, 2012, 9:23 am) |
I enjoyed that EOG... thanks. It's a little comforting (for what it's worth) to know that you almost attacked the Rogues during the simultaneous stab. It was I who should have taken advantage of the no-build the Rogues experienced in year 1, but silly me thought if I leave him alone, he'll thank me by being my ally.
From: "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; mrh(at)panix.com; Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; baz.dip(at)gmail.com; dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com; chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; welsh_stroud(at)msn.com; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com; sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com; Spinozas(at)gmx.net; kingkovas(at)gmail.com; tiga124(at)aol.com; tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 12:33 AM
Subject: DC394 Knights EOG
Ok this is going to be long. I apologize in advance. Anyone who wasn't
involved until the end might find it boring. It???s been fantastic reading
everyone???s EOGs so far and I would like to respond to a couple of them when
I have some more time. I'm really excited about Mike Hoffman's EOG,
presumably coming soon!
Let me start by again thanking everyone in this game. It lasted forever,
but was by far the most entertaining dip game I???ve ever played ??? and I???m
only slightly biased because I won. This game had every level of intrigue
and strategic depth you could want. During this EOG I???m going to reference
players by their Haven identities. It isn???t that I didn???t get used to
calling everybody by name ??? I just think it???s confusing to people who never
met each other in the game to read about other players by first name. I???ll
slip into first names if I???m
describing the person???s play style or other
personal discussions.
My EOG is about critical inflection points ??? key moments in the game that
changed its trajectory. I want to highlight six such points from the
Knights perspective:
Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
Fall 13: The Great Stab
Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
1) Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Haven is a big complicated board. You have to be able to discern about a
thousand tiny little names and figure out how everything connects. The
Barbarians could be forgiven for not recognizing immediately that Ice Reach
is literally the most important territory on the revised board. Look at
this space. It is a build center, has access to two sea zones and a river
that leads everywhere, possesses an
impenetrable access point to the
Underground, and gives access to Dragons Teeth, which basically allows
whoever has Ice Reach to encircle the north continent before anyone even
knows what happened. Simply put: Ice Reach is the best center in the game
and the Barbarians gave it to me on turn 1 like the Indians gave up
Manhattan. By 03 I was literally alone in the Underground as the Dwarves
set off on other exploits. Capturing Diamond Mines from the Dwarves was
just a no-brainer. He had no way of wresting it from me and it provided
the perfect cover for protecting my gem in Ice Reach and my path to Dragons
Teeth where I knew all my action was going to be in the coming fight with
the Faeries. By 03 I was firmly entrenched in the Underground and knew it
would be almost impossible to get me out of there unless somebody came at
me from above. Thus began a very long dance with the Dwarves
that
eventually yielded the entire Underground and the keys to the game.
At the same time I was locking in pick-and-choose alliances with everybody
around me. I???ll digress and say that the Rogues and I hit it off
immediately. Mike (Rogues) has a fantastic strategic mind. I really
enjoyed those early-game strategy sessions, where we hatched the KR. Mike
led those sessions and I owe him a lot for focusing me and helping provide
a strategic design for the next 13 or so game years. It was a fantastic
partnership. Mike put forward a lot of concepts and then we bantered about
specific plans. After one year the work product the Rogues and I were
producing together was clearly stronger than anything else I was
developing. The Centaurs were simultaneously organizing a pie-in-the-sky
KRCG, though the Gnomes were never very warm to it. There was also some
banter
with the Nomads and Archers. But by 02 my sense is that both Mike
and I knew that the KR was going to rule the north.
2) Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
For awhile everyone in the north seemed to pretend like we could actually
play the game with nobody fighting anyone else north of the Faeries. But
everything in the north came to a head starting Spring 03. In one of my
few early game strategic designs where I excluded the Rogues, I engineered
a massive stab of the Centaurs along with the Gnomes, which created a fait
accompli for the Rogues to join. Rogues weren???t thrilled and it was awful
to watch the Centaurs desperately try and save their KRCG project. They
were gone in two years. I simultaneously made a move against the Dwarves
and then settled things with him for quite some time while I solved above
ground matters. I actually think I hit the
Archers that same turn. I was
a little nervous everything would unwind for me, but Mike and I just kept
rolling. We turned our attention to the Faeries and I have to admit ???
there was one turn there where Rogues left themselves completely open to a
stab, which I told the Faeries I was planning to exploit and almost did.
But the strategic relationship was too important. The Faeries and I ended
up stabbing each other simultaneously that turn, and Rogues came in to help
me clean them up.
The KR plan we hatched in the first year had called for domination of the
central sea. We bulldozed the Faeries and had our fleets in the center by
06.
3) Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
The result of knocking out the Centaurs, otherwise known as the great
cheerleaders of the north, was a deeply uncomfortable situation where I was
playing peacemaker between the Gnomes and Rogues on
either side of me. I
really liked working with the Gnomes. We had good dialogue, were always on
the same page, and he enabled me to force the Rogues??? hand in dealing with
the Centaurs. But the Gnomes were being attacked by the Trolls, to whom I
don???t think I spoke at all the entire game. And it was clear to everyone
that the Rogues were the Trolls??? benefactor. This was irritating because I
couldn???t care less about the Trolls. But as a result the Gnomes HATED the
Rogues. It was extremely ugly. I had to keep promising the Gnomes that I
was really going to turn on the Rogues eventually ??? I came up with every
excuse in the book to delay it while the KR drove through the Faeries. I
have to hand it to Charlie (Gnomes) ??? he played a great game and I have to
assume he basically knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I
know deep down he suspected that
the KR was rock solid, but he had
absolutely nowhere to else to go for friends. Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, and here he was, stuck in the middle with me. I
really respect Charlie as a player and hope to see him again in another
game soon. When it came, I didn???t execute perfectly and the Gnomes put up
a good fight. I had the Pirates in on it, though, and there was just no
way the Gnomes were going to survive us both. The key to all of this was
making sure the Rogues moved against the Trolls first, so I protected
myself against the KR alliance coming undone at the wrong moment.
Ultimately it all came together nicely.
4) 09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
I hadn???t spent a lot of time interacting with the Pirates or really most
of the other powers outside my immediate vicinity. My squabbles and
ultimate settlement with the
Dwarves had brought me into contact with the
Elves, who were clearly (as Jim-Bob the Dwarf has said in his EOG) acting
as the Dwarves??? chief advisor. I engaged the Pirates in my plan against
the Gnomes and I think we worked well together for a time. Meanwhile, there
was a growing sense between the Rogues and me that the PH alliance was the
strongest on the board. Rogues were deeply concerned that my work with the
Pirates against the Gnomes was going to eliminate a buffer between us and
give the Pirate too much growth potential. He was probably right. The
Gnomes were the only power besides the Hobbits that the Pirates could
attack and I was providing him that window rather than making him choose
for himself.
The Rogues and I engaged the PH alliance in talk of a grand partnership.
I don???t know whether this was ever a serious discussion or not. We all
flirted on email a little,
but I think this all happened over Christmas
when there was a serious game lull. On the other end of that lull, the PH
inexplicably blew up over circumstances I absolutely never figured out and
then the Pirates simply imploded. You all witnessed it so I won???t go into
details here, but it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that this
was a HUGE boon for me. I would be surprised if any of us see Tom in
another game. It???s a disappointment when anyone leaves the game, but this
left a big hole and even though I benefitted from it, it was a shame that
happened here.
5) Fall 13: The Great Stab
The KR could have cruised to victory. I mopped up the Gnomes and split
the Pirate centers with the Hobbits about 60-40, while Rogues finished up
with the Trolls and Leprechauns. Meanwhile I hit the Dwarves hard
Underground and eventually we stalemated down
there. This is the moment
Jim mentioned regarding his lack of understanding of the map. I also don???t
quite know when I noticed it, but at some key moment I definitely noticed
none of his supports were crossing through the jump points, though I had
been focusing on his center where he was focusing his supports. I decided
to hit him really hard on the end points and I shattered him. I didn???t
realize he didn???t see the crossover arrows ??? I just thought he was getting
predictable so I changed patterns and ouila. But obviously he hadn???t seen
the defense options. Regardless, by this point everybody knew that the KR
could impose its will on the board.
But rolling the Dwarves meant that a stab of the Rogues was suddenly
possible. Rogues and I could have hit each other a lot of different times
over the years and we had slipped into a pretty good pattern of
trust,
trading centers to keep things clean, and keeping our counts about even.
When I rolled up the Underground, that balance seemed to change. The
decision to hit the Rogues was the hardest Diplomacy move I???ve ever made.
We were really an unstoppable team, had great strategic chemistry, and I
think we balanced out one another???s weaknesses in a lot of ways. I sent in
a regular set of agreed-upon KR orders and on a whim, drafted the stab
orders at lunch on the day of the deadline, just as a spare time what-if
(this strategic inflection point owes itself to the fact that Congress was
in recess that week). When I pulled the trigger and sent the stab orders
to Sims, it actually made me queasy. Mike invested A LOT of time in our
strategy sessions and I knew this would hurt.
After he removed himself from the ceiling, Mike emailed me to say that if
I ever wanted to rebuild the KR, all I had to
do was let him know and we
would go back to where we left off. He said this again multiple times as
the game ground on. This became relevant later.
The game result was total mayhem as Rogues moved to rally support around
stopping me. There were only five of us on the board at this point and I
knew I had to move quickly to take advantage of the weak Rogue position and
the total discombobulation of all his prospective partners. Much has been
said about the chaos in the south, but this situation brought out all of
its neuroses, which Mike evidently added to with his mildly spastic
leadership style. Winning outright was going to be hard, though I had a
path. My strategic goal was to create an air of inevitability around my
victory and simply demoralize everybody other than Mike into not caring
what happened in the game. It almost worked. I have to give Mike a lot
of
credit for rallying everybody and playing a double game against the Elves,
which cost me a clean win around Year 14/15. The Elves had apparently
grown disenchanted with Rogue leadership and attempted the most ham-handed
game-throwing exercise I???ve ever seen. Meanwhile he was being played and
eaten alive by the other three coalition members. That hurt me because I
trusted the Elves for one turn too long and made some bad moves on his
advice. Rogues were by then steadying the ship and I made a couple of
overreach plays in an effort to grab too many Rogue home centers at once,
which allowed him to reinforce some. Then the Hobbits mysteriously grew
disenchanted with the Rogues as well and started making noises about
throwing the game. Once again, I crazily went along with this until Rogues
snapped him back into place and I was left totally out of position. The
result was a long
stalemate.
6) Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
The problem with the game at this point was it was really lonely. I would
sit down the night before every deadline with nobody to talk to and what
seemed like about 700 units to sift through. Spring 19 was the
coalition???s best turn. They beat me everywhere. I had settled in at about
45 centers after peaking at around 47 or 48. It just wasn???t happening.
I decided to play the card the Rogues had dealt me when we first parted
ways. I reached out to Rogues in an absolutely sincere effort to
reestablish the KR. My belief was that when they saw what was happening,
the Hobbits and Dwarves would immediately fold and vote for a draw. Why
wouldn???t they? Defeating them outright would take years and it would be
awful to play through. So I went into the KR Rapprochement fully
intending
on a KR draw. I was very comfortable with it. It would have been a fitting
end.
But I think the Rogues were sort of responsible for what happened next.
Rather than responding to me cautiously and making me make the first moves
away from him, he infuriated the coalition members by going full bore on
them overnight (in fairness, this was partially in response to my
prediction that they would fold quickly). It may not have mattered, but a
lighter hand may have changed the human response to this. Jim-Bob is made
of stern stuff and convinced the Hobbits that under no circumstances would
either of them vote for a draw. So that meant that the Rogues and I would
have to capture exactly 51 centers each in order to secure the KR. I was
actually still willing to play this out until I ???what-if???d??? a set of
game-winning moves the night before the F20 deadline.
Rogues were
insisting I give him some centers to keep things even ??? perfectly logical.
But when I wrote out some sample orders, it was obvious I could win it all
at once. So I did, and stabbed the Rogues again. All alone with nobody to
talk to.[Reply] |
| DC394 Knights EOG - ConradW (Oct 04, 2012, 3:29 am) |
Great analysis, thanks. Yes I knew my goose was cooked, so to speak, when I couldn't knock a hole through the Trolls to south.
I had a lot of negotiations with Tom (Pirates). He was a great player and invited me into a hugely complex game he was GMing. For some reason people gave him a lot of crap about what seemed to me minor errors and slipped deadlines. This was truly a shame. I don't know what the hell hah ha has happened to civility in internet discourse, but I mean come on the guy was enabling the opportunity to play the game, why give him a hard time?? If you don't like the GMing of a game it is possible to resign. Anyway I am speaking to the wrong audience, everyone in this game was enjoyable to play with.
I just don't know.
In retrospect I should have just hit the Rogues. Yes I really HATED them.
Finally this is a fantastic variant, my second shot at it and I'm in for the next one. Thanks Mike.
> To: clockheardt(at)yahoo.com
> Subject: DC394 Knights EOG[Reply] |
| DC394 Knights EOG - briandiffell (Oct 04, 2012, 12:33 am) |
Ok this is going to be long. I apologize in advance. Anyone who wasn't
involved until the end might find it boring. It???s been fantastic reading
everyone???s EOGs so far and I would like to respond to a couple of them when
I have some more time. I'm really excited about Mike Hoffman's EOG,
presumably coming soon!
Let me start by again thanking everyone in this game. It lasted forever,
but was by far the most entertaining dip game I???ve ever played ??? and I???m
only slightly biased because I won. This game had every level of intrigue
and strategic depth you could want. During this EOG I???m going to reference
players by their Haven identities. It isn???t that I didn???t get used to
calling everybody by name ??? I just think it???s confusing to people who never
met each other in the game to read about other players by first name. I???ll
slip into first names if I???m describing the person???s play style or other
personal discussions.
My EOG is about critical inflection points ??? key moments in the game that
changed its trajectory. I want to highlight six such points from the
Knights perspective:
Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
Fall 13: The Great Stab
Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
1) Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Haven is a big complicated board. You have to be able to discern about a
thousand tiny little names and figure out how everything connects. The
Barbarians could be forgiven for not recognizing immediately that Ice Reach
is literally the most important territory on the revised board. Look at
this space. It is a build center, has access to two sea zones and a river
that leads everywhere, possesses an impenetrable access point to the
Underground, and gives access to Dragons Teeth, which basically allows
whoever has Ice Reach to encircle the north continent before anyone even
knows what happened. Simply put: Ice Reach is the best center in the game
and the Barbarians gave it to me on turn 1 like the Indians gave up
Manhattan. By 03 I was literally alone in the Underground as the Dwarves
set off on other exploits. Capturing Diamond Mines from the Dwarves was
just a no-brainer. He had no way of wresting it from me and it provided
the perfect cover for protecting my gem in Ice Reach and my path to Dragons
Teeth where I knew all my action was going to be in the coming fight with
the Faeries. By 03 I was firmly entrenched in the Underground and knew it
would be almost impossible to get me out of there unless somebody came at
me from above. Thus began a very long dance with the Dwarves that
eventually yielded the entire Underground and the keys to the game.
At the same time I was locking in pick-and-choose alliances with everybody
around me. I???ll digress and say that the Rogues and I hit it off
immediately. Mike (Rogues) has a fantastic strategic mind. I really
enjoyed those early-game strategy sessions, where we hatched the KR. Mike
led those sessions and I owe him a lot for focusing me and helping provide
a strategic design for the next 13 or so game years. It was a fantastic
partnership. Mike put forward a lot of concepts and then we bantered about
specific plans. After one year the work product the Rogues and I were
producing together was clearly stronger than anything else I was
developing. The Centaurs were simultaneously organizing a pie-in-the-sky
KRCG, though the Gnomes were never very warm to it. There was also some
banter with the Nomads and Archers. But by 02 my sense is that both Mike
and I knew that the KR was going to rule the north.
2) Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
For awhile everyone in the north seemed to pretend like we could actually
play the game with nobody fighting anyone else north of the Faeries. But
everything in the north came to a head starting Spring 03. In one of my
few early game strategic designs where I excluded the Rogues, I engineered
a massive stab of the Centaurs along with the Gnomes, which created a fait
accompli for the Rogues to join. Rogues weren???t thrilled and it was awful
to watch the Centaurs desperately try and save their KRCG project. They
were gone in two years. I simultaneously made a move against the Dwarves
and then settled things with him for quite some time while I solved above
ground matters. I actually think I hit the Archers that same turn. I was
a little nervous everything would unwind for me, but Mike and I just kept
rolling. We turned our attention to the Faeries and I have to admit ???
there was one turn there where Rogues left themselves completely open to a
stab, which I told the Faeries I was planning to exploit and almost did.
But the strategic relationship was too important. The Faeries and I ended
up stabbing each other simultaneously that turn, and Rogues came in to help
me clean them up.
The KR plan we hatched in the first year had called for domination of the
central sea. We bulldozed the Faeries and had our fleets in the center by
06.
3) Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
The result of knocking out the Centaurs, otherwise known as the great
cheerleaders of the north, was a deeply uncomfortable situation where I was
playing peacemaker between the Gnomes and Rogues on either side of me. I
really liked working with the Gnomes. We had good dialogue, were always on
the same page, and he enabled me to force the Rogues??? hand in dealing with
the Centaurs. But the Gnomes were being attacked by the Trolls, to whom I
don???t think I spoke at all the entire game. And it was clear to everyone
that the Rogues were the Trolls??? benefactor. This was irritating because I
couldn???t care less about the Trolls. But as a result the Gnomes HATED the
Rogues. It was extremely ugly. I had to keep promising the Gnomes that I
was really going to turn on the Rogues eventually ??? I came up with every
excuse in the book to delay it while the KR drove through the Faeries. I
have to hand it to Charlie (Gnomes) ??? he played a great game and I have to
assume he basically knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I
know deep down he suspected that the KR was rock solid, but he had
absolutely nowhere to else to go for friends. Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, and here he was, stuck in the middle with me. I
really respect Charlie as a player and hope to see him again in another
game soon. When it came, I didn???t execute perfectly and the Gnomes put up
a good fight. I had the Pirates in on it, though, and there was just no
way the Gnomes were going to survive us both. The key to all of this was
making sure the Rogues moved against the Trolls first, so I protected
myself against the KR alliance coming undone at the wrong moment.
Ultimately it all came together nicely.
4) 09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
I hadn???t spent a lot of time interacting with the Pirates or really most
of the other powers outside my immediate vicinity. My squabbles and
ultimate settlement with the Dwarves had brought me into contact with the
Elves, who were clearly (as Jim-Bob the Dwarf has said in his EOG) acting
as the Dwarves??? chief advisor. I engaged the Pirates in my plan against
the Gnomes and I think we worked well together for a time. Meanwhile, there
was a growing sense between the Rogues and me that the PH alliance was the
strongest on the board. Rogues were deeply concerned that my work with the
Pirates against the Gnomes was going to eliminate a buffer between us and
give the Pirate too much growth potential. He was probably right. The
Gnomes were the only power besides the Hobbits that the Pirates could
attack and I was providing him that window rather than making him choose
for himself.
The Rogues and I engaged the PH alliance in talk of a grand partnership.
I don???t know whether this was ever a serious discussion or not. We all
flirted on email a little, but I think this all happened over Christmas
when there was a serious game lull. On the other end of that lull, the PH
inexplicably blew up over circumstances I absolutely never figured out and
then the Pirates simply imploded. You all witnessed it so I won???t go into
details here, but it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that this
was a HUGE boon for me. I would be surprised if any of us see Tom in
another game. It???s a disappointment when anyone leaves the game, but this
left a big hole and even though I benefitted from it, it was a shame that
happened here.
5) Fall 13: The Great Stab
The KR could have cruised to victory. I mopped up the Gnomes and split
the Pirate centers with the Hobbits about 60-40, while Rogues finished up
with the Trolls and Leprechauns. Meanwhile I hit the Dwarves hard
Underground and eventually we stalemated down there. This is the moment
Jim mentioned regarding his lack of understanding of the map. I also don???t
quite know when I noticed it, but at some key moment I definitely noticed
none of his supports were crossing through the jump points, though I had
been focusing on his center where he was focusing his supports. I decided
to hit him really hard on the end points and I shattered him. I didn???t
realize he didn???t see the crossover arrows ??? I just thought he was getting
predictable so I changed patterns and ouila. But obviously he hadn???t seen
the defense options. Regardless, by this point everybody knew that the KR
could impose its will on the board.
But rolling the Dwarves meant that a stab of the Rogues was suddenly
possible. Rogues and I could have hit each other a lot of different times
over the years and we had slipped into a pretty good pattern of trust,
trading centers to keep things clean, and keeping our counts about even.
When I rolled up the Underground, that balance seemed to change. The
decision to hit the Rogues was the hardest Diplomacy move I???ve ever made.
We were really an unstoppable team, had great strategic chemistry, and I
think we balanced out one another???s weaknesses in a lot of ways. I sent in
a regular set of agreed-upon KR orders and on a whim, drafted the stab
orders at lunch on the day of the deadline, just as a spare time what-if
(this strategic inflection point owes itself to the fact that Congress was
in recess that week). When I pulled the trigger and sent the stab orders
to Sims, it actually made me queasy. Mike invested A LOT of time in our
strategy sessions and I knew this would hurt.
After he removed himself from the ceiling, Mike emailed me to say that if
I ever wanted to rebuild the KR, all I had to do was let him know and we
would go back to where we left off. He said this again multiple times as
the game ground on. This became relevant later.
The game result was total mayhem as Rogues moved to rally support around
stopping me. There were only five of us on the board at this point and I
knew I had to move quickly to take advantage of the weak Rogue position and
the total discombobulation of all his prospective partners. Much has been
said about the chaos in the south, but this situation brought out all of
its neuroses, which Mike evidently added to with his mildly spastic
leadership style. Winning outright was going to be hard, though I had a
path. My strategic goal was to create an air of inevitability around my
victory and simply demoralize everybody other than Mike into not caring
what happened in the game. It almost worked. I have to give Mike a lot of
credit for rallying everybody and playing a double game against the Elves,
which cost me a clean win around Year 14/15. The Elves had apparently
grown disenchanted with Rogue leadership and attempted the most ham-handed
game-throwing exercise I???ve ever seen. Meanwhile he was being played and
eaten alive by the other three coalition members. That hurt me because I
trusted the Elves for one turn too long and made some bad moves on his
advice. Rogues were by then steadying the ship and I made a couple of
overreach plays in an effort to grab too many Rogue home centers at once,
which allowed him to reinforce some. Then the Hobbits mysteriously grew
disenchanted with the Rogues as well and started making noises about
throwing the game. Once again, I crazily went along with this until Rogues
snapped him back into place and I was left totally out of position. The
result was a long stalemate.
6) Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
The problem with the game at this point was it was really lonely. I would
sit down the night before every deadline with nobody to talk to and what
seemed like about 700 units to sift through. Spring 19 was the
coalition???s best turn. They beat me everywhere. I had settled in at about
45 centers after peaking at around 47 or 48. It just wasn???t happening.
I decided to play the card the Rogues had dealt me when we first parted
ways. I reached out to Rogues in an absolutely sincere effort to
reestablish the KR. My belief was that when they saw what was happening,
the Hobbits and Dwarves would immediately fold and vote for a draw. Why
wouldn???t they? Defeating them outright would take years and it would be
awful to play through. So I went into the KR Rapprochement fully intending
on a KR draw. I was very comfortable with it. It would have been a fitting
end.
But I think the Rogues were sort of responsible for what happened next.
Rather than responding to me cautiously and making me make the first moves
away from him, he infuriated the coalition members by going full bore on
them overnight (in fairness, this was partially in response to my
prediction that they would fold quickly). It may not have mattered, but a
lighter hand may have changed the human response to this. Jim-Bob is made
of stern stuff and convinced the Hobbits that under no circumstances would
either of them vote for a draw. So that meant that the Rogues and I would
have to capture exactly 51 centers each in order to secure the KR. I was
actually still willing to play this out until I ???what-if???d??? a set of
game-winning moves the night before the F20 deadline. Rogues were
insisting I give him some centers to keep things even ??? perfectly logical.
But when I wrote out some sample orders, it was obvious I could win it all
at once. So I did, and stabbed the Rogues again. All alone with nobody to
talk to.[Reply] |
| DC394 Knights EOG (dc394) ConradW Oct 04, 03:29 am |
Great analysis, thanks. Yes I knew my goose was cooked, so to speak, when I couldn't knock a hole through the Trolls to south.
I had a lot of negotiations with Tom (Pirates). He was a great player and invited me into a hugely complex game he was GMing. For some reason people gave him a lot of crap about what seemed to me minor errors and slipped deadlines. This was truly a shame. I don't know what the hell hah ha has happened to civility in internet discourse, but I mean come on the guy was enabling the opportunity to play the game, why give him a hard time?? If you don't like the GMing of a game it is possible to resign. Anyway I am speaking to the wrong audience, everyone in this game was enjoyable to play with.
I just don't know.
In retrospect I should have just hit the Rogues. Yes I really HATED them.
Finally this is a fantastic variant, my second shot at it and I'm in for the next one. Thanks Mike.
> To: clockheardt(at)yahoo.com
> Subject: DC394 Knights EOG |
| DC394 Knights EOG (dc394) Viper Oct 04, 09:23 am |
I enjoyed that EOG... thanks. It's a little comforting (for what it's worth) to know that you almost attacked the Rogues during the simultaneous stab. It was I who should have taken advantage of the no-build the Rogues experienced in year 1, but silly me thought if I leave him alone, he'll thank me by being my ally.
From: "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; mrh(at)panix.com; Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; baz.dip(at)gmail.com; dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com; chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; welsh_stroud(at)msn.com; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com; sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com; Spinozas(at)gmx.net; kingkovas(at)gmail.com; tiga124(at)aol.com; tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 12:33 AM
Subject: DC394 Knights EOG
Ok this is going to be long. I apologize in advance. Anyone who wasn't
involved until the end might find it boring. It???s been fantastic reading
everyone???s EOGs so far and I would like to respond to a couple of them when
I have some more time. I'm really excited about Mike Hoffman's EOG,
presumably coming soon!
Let me start by again thanking everyone in this game. It lasted forever,
but was by far the most entertaining dip game I???ve ever played ??? and I???m
only slightly biased because I won. This game had every level of intrigue
and strategic depth you could want. During this EOG I???m going to reference
players by their Haven identities. It isn???t that I didn???t get used to
calling everybody by name ??? I just think it???s confusing to people who never
met each other in the game to read about other players by first name. I???ll
slip into first names if I???m
describing the person???s play style or other
personal discussions.
My EOG is about critical inflection points ??? key moments in the game that
changed its trajectory. I want to highlight six such points from the
Knights perspective:
Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
Fall 13: The Great Stab
Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
1) Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Haven is a big complicated board. You have to be able to discern about a
thousand tiny little names and figure out how everything connects. The
Barbarians could be forgiven for not recognizing immediately that Ice Reach
is literally the most important territory on the revised board. Look at
this space. It is a build center, has access to two sea zones and a river
that leads everywhere, possesses an
impenetrable access point to the
Underground, and gives access to Dragons Teeth, which basically allows
whoever has Ice Reach to encircle the north continent before anyone even
knows what happened. Simply put: Ice Reach is the best center in the game
and the Barbarians gave it to me on turn 1 like the Indians gave up
Manhattan. By 03 I was literally alone in the Underground as the Dwarves
set off on other exploits. Capturing Diamond Mines from the Dwarves was
just a no-brainer. He had no way of wresting it from me and it provided
the perfect cover for protecting my gem in Ice Reach and my path to Dragons
Teeth where I knew all my action was going to be in the coming fight with
the Faeries. By 03 I was firmly entrenched in the Underground and knew it
would be almost impossible to get me out of there unless somebody came at
me from above. Thus began a very long dance with the Dwarves
that
eventually yielded the entire Underground and the keys to the game.
At the same time I was locking in pick-and-choose alliances with everybody
around me. I???ll digress and say that the Rogues and I hit it off
immediately. Mike (Rogues) has a fantastic strategic mind. I really
enjoyed those early-game strategy sessions, where we hatched the KR. Mike
led those sessions and I owe him a lot for focusing me and helping provide
a strategic design for the next 13 or so game years. It was a fantastic
partnership. Mike put forward a lot of concepts and then we bantered about
specific plans. After one year the work product the Rogues and I were
producing together was clearly stronger than anything else I was
developing. The Centaurs were simultaneously organizing a pie-in-the-sky
KRCG, though the Gnomes were never very warm to it. There was also some
banter
with the Nomads and Archers. But by 02 my sense is that both Mike
and I knew that the KR was going to rule the north.
2) Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
For awhile everyone in the north seemed to pretend like we could actually
play the game with nobody fighting anyone else north of the Faeries. But
everything in the north came to a head starting Spring 03. In one of my
few early game strategic designs where I excluded the Rogues, I engineered
a massive stab of the Centaurs along with the Gnomes, which created a fait
accompli for the Rogues to join. Rogues weren???t thrilled and it was awful
to watch the Centaurs desperately try and save their KRCG project. They
were gone in two years. I simultaneously made a move against the Dwarves
and then settled things with him for quite some time while I solved above
ground matters. I actually think I hit the
Archers that same turn. I was
a little nervous everything would unwind for me, but Mike and I just kept
rolling. We turned our attention to the Faeries and I have to admit ???
there was one turn there where Rogues left themselves completely open to a
stab, which I told the Faeries I was planning to exploit and almost did.
But the strategic relationship was too important. The Faeries and I ended
up stabbing each other simultaneously that turn, and Rogues came in to help
me clean them up.
The KR plan we hatched in the first year had called for domination of the
central sea. We bulldozed the Faeries and had our fleets in the center by
06.
3) Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
The result of knocking out the Centaurs, otherwise known as the great
cheerleaders of the north, was a deeply uncomfortable situation where I was
playing peacemaker between the Gnomes and Rogues on
either side of me. I
really liked working with the Gnomes. We had good dialogue, were always on
the same page, and he enabled me to force the Rogues??? hand in dealing with
the Centaurs. But the Gnomes were being attacked by the Trolls, to whom I
don???t think I spoke at all the entire game. And it was clear to everyone
that the Rogues were the Trolls??? benefactor. This was irritating because I
couldn???t care less about the Trolls. But as a result the Gnomes HATED the
Rogues. It was extremely ugly. I had to keep promising the Gnomes that I
was really going to turn on the Rogues eventually ??? I came up with every
excuse in the book to delay it while the KR drove through the Faeries. I
have to hand it to Charlie (Gnomes) ??? he played a great game and I have to
assume he basically knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I
know deep down he suspected that
the KR was rock solid, but he had
absolutely nowhere to else to go for friends. Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, and here he was, stuck in the middle with me. I
really respect Charlie as a player and hope to see him again in another
game soon. When it came, I didn???t execute perfectly and the Gnomes put up
a good fight. I had the Pirates in on it, though, and there was just no
way the Gnomes were going to survive us both. The key to all of this was
making sure the Rogues moved against the Trolls first, so I protected
myself against the KR alliance coming undone at the wrong moment.
Ultimately it all came together nicely.
4) 09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
I hadn???t spent a lot of time interacting with the Pirates or really most
of the other powers outside my immediate vicinity. My squabbles and
ultimate settlement with the
Dwarves had brought me into contact with the
Elves, who were clearly (as Jim-Bob the Dwarf has said in his EOG) acting
as the Dwarves??? chief advisor. I engaged the Pirates in my plan against
the Gnomes and I think we worked well together for a time. Meanwhile, there
was a growing sense between the Rogues and me that the PH alliance was the
strongest on the board. Rogues were deeply concerned that my work with the
Pirates against the Gnomes was going to eliminate a buffer between us and
give the Pirate too much growth potential. He was probably right. The
Gnomes were the only power besides the Hobbits that the Pirates could
attack and I was providing him that window rather than making him choose
for himself.
The Rogues and I engaged the PH alliance in talk of a grand partnership.
I don???t know whether this was ever a serious discussion or not. We all
flirted on email a little,
but I think this all happened over Christmas
when there was a serious game lull. On the other end of that lull, the PH
inexplicably blew up over circumstances I absolutely never figured out and
then the Pirates simply imploded. You all witnessed it so I won???t go into
details here, but it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that this
was a HUGE boon for me. I would be surprised if any of us see Tom in
another game. It???s a disappointment when anyone leaves the game, but this
left a big hole and even though I benefitted from it, it was a shame that
happened here.
5) Fall 13: The Great Stab
The KR could have cruised to victory. I mopped up the Gnomes and split
the Pirate centers with the Hobbits about 60-40, while Rogues finished up
with the Trolls and Leprechauns. Meanwhile I hit the Dwarves hard
Underground and eventually we stalemated down
there. This is the moment
Jim mentioned regarding his lack of understanding of the map. I also don???t
quite know when I noticed it, but at some key moment I definitely noticed
none of his supports were crossing through the jump points, though I had
been focusing on his center where he was focusing his supports. I decided
to hit him really hard on the end points and I shattered him. I didn???t
realize he didn???t see the crossover arrows ??? I just thought he was getting
predictable so I changed patterns and ouila. But obviously he hadn???t seen
the defense options. Regardless, by this point everybody knew that the KR
could impose its will on the board.
But rolling the Dwarves meant that a stab of the Rogues was suddenly
possible. Rogues and I could have hit each other a lot of different times
over the years and we had slipped into a pretty good pattern of
trust,
trading centers to keep things clean, and keeping our counts about even.
When I rolled up the Underground, that balance seemed to change. The
decision to hit the Rogues was the hardest Diplomacy move I???ve ever made.
We were really an unstoppable team, had great strategic chemistry, and I
think we balanced out one another???s weaknesses in a lot of ways. I sent in
a regular set of agreed-upon KR orders and on a whim, drafted the stab
orders at lunch on the day of the deadline, just as a spare time what-if
(this strategic inflection point owes itself to the fact that Congress was
in recess that week). When I pulled the trigger and sent the stab orders
to Sims, it actually made me queasy. Mike invested A LOT of time in our
strategy sessions and I knew this would hurt.
After he removed himself from the ceiling, Mike emailed me to say that if
I ever wanted to rebuild the KR, all I had to
do was let him know and we
would go back to where we left off. He said this again multiple times as
the game ground on. This became relevant later.
The game result was total mayhem as Rogues moved to rally support around
stopping me. There were only five of us on the board at this point and I
knew I had to move quickly to take advantage of the weak Rogue position and
the total discombobulation of all his prospective partners. Much has been
said about the chaos in the south, but this situation brought out all of
its neuroses, which Mike evidently added to with his mildly spastic
leadership style. Winning outright was going to be hard, though I had a
path. My strategic goal was to create an air of inevitability around my
victory and simply demoralize everybody other than Mike into not caring
what happened in the game. It almost worked. I have to give Mike a lot
of
credit for rallying everybody and playing a double game against the Elves,
which cost me a clean win around Year 14/15. The Elves had apparently
grown disenchanted with Rogue leadership and attempted the most ham-handed
game-throwing exercise I???ve ever seen. Meanwhile he was being played and
eaten alive by the other three coalition members. That hurt me because I
trusted the Elves for one turn too long and made some bad moves on his
advice. Rogues were by then steadying the ship and I made a couple of
overreach plays in an effort to grab too many Rogue home centers at once,
which allowed him to reinforce some. Then the Hobbits mysteriously grew
disenchanted with the Rogues as well and started making noises about
throwing the game. Once again, I crazily went along with this until Rogues
snapped him back into place and I was left totally out of position. The
result was a long
stalemate.
6) Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
The problem with the game at this point was it was really lonely. I would
sit down the night before every deadline with nobody to talk to and what
seemed like about 700 units to sift through. Spring 19 was the
coalition???s best turn. They beat me everywhere. I had settled in at about
45 centers after peaking at around 47 or 48. It just wasn???t happening.
I decided to play the card the Rogues had dealt me when we first parted
ways. I reached out to Rogues in an absolutely sincere effort to
reestablish the KR. My belief was that when they saw what was happening,
the Hobbits and Dwarves would immediately fold and vote for a draw. Why
wouldn???t they? Defeating them outright would take years and it would be
awful to play through. So I went into the KR Rapprochement fully
intending
on a KR draw. I was very comfortable with it. It would have been a fitting
end.
But I think the Rogues were sort of responsible for what happened next.
Rather than responding to me cautiously and making me make the first moves
away from him, he infuriated the coalition members by going full bore on
them overnight (in fairness, this was partially in response to my
prediction that they would fold quickly). It may not have mattered, but a
lighter hand may have changed the human response to this. Jim-Bob is made
of stern stuff and convinced the Hobbits that under no circumstances would
either of them vote for a draw. So that meant that the Rogues and I would
have to capture exactly 51 centers each in order to secure the KR. I was
actually still willing to play this out until I ???what-if???d??? a set of
game-winning moves the night before the F20 deadline.
Rogues were
insisting I give him some centers to keep things even ??? perfectly logical.
But when I wrote out some sample orders, it was obvious I could win it all
at once. So I did, and stabbed the Rogues again. All alone with nobody to
talk to. |
| DC394 Knights EOG (dc394) chaosonejoe Oct 04, 12:06 pm |
Just a few comments from the Hobbitses:
My 'throw the game' situation was equal ruse and disgust with Mike's "I accidentally stabbed you" explanation. I understand having those sets of orders handy. During the times we tried to coordinate, there were a lot of last minute instructions, which tipped me off to some high level intrigues. It's easy to say now, but the KR arrangment was something I figured out and figured was nigh unstoppable.
(I'm just sensitive to the "I'll throw the game" public comments/strategy/retaliation and really find that approach about the worst way to game imaginable. Then again, I was willing to help pick a winner/pick against an opponent in the end. But there's a fine line there which I hope can be appreciated.)
The level of Elvish double-dealing is fascinating, but also explains why he survived as long as he did from the Hobbit onslaught
Mike's end-game approach was mystifying. Had he not spent 6 months telling us that we've invested too much to let one person win, only to say 'let us both win', it may have worked. Had he stabbed before the 'great interruptions' of moves/vacations/work, it may have worked. Had he stabbed a week or so later, it may have worked. But the 'stab while people are distracted' stoked the wrong kind of response.
I know I was convinced to some degree by Jim, but the sense of 'die trying' was foremost. Giving up meant voting for the draw.
Joe
From: "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; mrh(at)panix.com; Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; baz.dip(at)gmail.com; dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com; chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; welsh_stroud(at)msn.com; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com; Jerome Payne
<jerome777(at)ymail.com>; wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com; sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com; Spinozas(at)gmx.net; kingkovas(at)gmail.com; tiga124(at)aol.com; tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:33 AM
Subject: DC394 Knights EOG
Ok this is going to be long. I apologize in advance. Anyone who wasn't
involved until the end might find it boring. It???s been fantastic reading
everyone???s EOGs so far and I would like to respond to a couple of them when
I have some more time. I'm really excited about Mike Hoffman's EOG,
presumably coming soon!
Let me start by again thanking everyone in this game. It lasted forever,
but was by far the most entertaining dip game I???ve ever played ??? and I???m
only slightly biased because I won. This game had every
level of intrigue
and strategic depth you could want. During this EOG I???m going to reference
players by their Haven identities. It isn???t that I didn???t get used to
calling everybody by name ??? I just think it???s confusing to people who never
met each other in the game to read about other players by first name. I???ll
slip into first names if I???m describing the person???s play style or other
personal discussions.
My EOG is about critical inflection points ??? key moments in the game that
changed its trajectory. I want to highlight six such points from the
Knights perspective:
Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
Fall 13: The Great Stab
Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
1) Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Haven is a big complicated board. You have
to be able to discern about a
thousand tiny little names and figure out how everything connects. The
Barbarians could be forgiven for not recognizing immediately that Ice Reach
is literally the most important territory on the revised board. Look at
this space. It is a build center, has access to two sea zones and a river
that leads everywhere, possesses an impenetrable access point to the
Underground, and gives access to Dragons Teeth, which basically allows
whoever has Ice Reach to encircle the north continent before anyone even
knows what happened. Simply put: Ice Reach is the best center in the game
and the Barbarians gave it to me on turn 1 like the Indians gave up
Manhattan. By 03 I was literally alone in the Underground as the Dwarves
set off on other exploits. Capturing Diamond Mines from the Dwarves was
just a no-brainer. He had no way of wresting it from me and it
provided
the perfect cover for protecting my gem in Ice Reach and my path to Dragons
Teeth where I knew all my action was going to be in the coming fight with
the Faeries. By 03 I was firmly entrenched in the Underground and knew it
would be almost impossible to get me out of there unless somebody came at
me from above. Thus began a very long dance with the Dwarves that
eventually yielded the entire Underground and the keys to the game.
At the same time I was locking in pick-and-choose alliances with everybody
around me. I???ll digress and say that the Rogues and I hit it off
immediately. Mike (Rogues) has a fantastic strategic mind. I really
enjoyed those early-game strategy sessions, where we hatched the KR. Mike
led those sessions and I owe him a lot for focusing me and helping provide
a strategic design for the next 13 or so game years. It was a
fantastic
partnership. Mike put forward a lot of concepts and then we bantered about
specific plans. After one year the work product the Rogues and I were
producing together was clearly stronger than anything else I was
developing. The Centaurs were simultaneously organizing a pie-in-the-sky
KRCG, though the Gnomes were never very warm to it. There was also some
banter with the Nomads and Archers. But by 02 my sense is that both Mike
and I knew that the KR was going to rule the north.
2) Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
For awhile everyone in the north seemed to pretend like we could actually
play the game with nobody fighting anyone else north of the Faeries. But
everything in the north came to a head starting Spring 03. In one of my
few early game strategic designs where I excluded the Rogues, I engineered
a massive stab of the Centaurs along with
the Gnomes, which created a fait
accompli for the Rogues to join. Rogues weren???t thrilled and it was awful
to watch the Centaurs desperately try and save their KRCG project. They
were gone in two years. I simultaneously made a move against the Dwarves
and then settled things with him for quite some time while I solved above
ground matters. I actually think I hit the Archers that same turn. I was
a little nervous everything would unwind for me, but Mike and I just kept
rolling. We turned our attention to the Faeries and I have to admit ???
there was one turn there where Rogues left themselves completely open to a
stab, which I told the Faeries I was planning to exploit and almost did.
But the strategic relationship was too important. The Faeries and I ended
up stabbing each other simultaneously that turn, and Rogues came in to help
me clean them up.
The KR plan we hatched
in the first year had called for domination of the
central sea. We bulldozed the Faeries and had our fleets in the center by
06.
3) Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
The result of knocking out the Centaurs, otherwise known as the great
cheerleaders of the north, was a deeply uncomfortable situation where I was
playing peacemaker between the Gnomes and Rogues on either side of me. I
really liked working with the Gnomes. We had good dialogue, were always on
the same page, and he enabled me to force the Rogues??? hand in dealing with
the Centaurs. But the Gnomes were being attacked by the Trolls, to whom I
don???t think I spoke at all the entire game. And it was clear to everyone
that the Rogues were the Trolls??? benefactor. This was irritating because I
couldn???t care less about the Trolls. But as a result the Gnomes HATED the
Rogues. It was
extremely ugly. I had to keep promising the Gnomes that I
was really going to turn on the Rogues eventually ??? I came up with every
excuse in the book to delay it while the KR drove through the Faeries. I
have to hand it to Charlie (Gnomes) ??? he played a great game and I have to
assume he basically knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I
know deep down he suspected that the KR was rock solid, but he had
absolutely nowhere to else to go for friends. Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, and here he was, stuck in the middle with me. I
really respect Charlie as a player and hope to see him again in another
game soon. When it came, I didn???t execute perfectly and the Gnomes put up
a good fight. I had the Pirates in on it, though, and there was just no
way the Gnomes were going to survive us both. The key to all of this was
making sure the Rogues
moved against the Trolls first, so I protected
myself against the KR alliance coming undone at the wrong moment.
Ultimately it all came together nicely.
4) 09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
I hadn???t spent a lot of time interacting with the Pirates or really most
of the other powers outside my immediate vicinity. My squabbles and
ultimate settlement with the Dwarves had brought me into contact with the
Elves, who were clearly (as Jim-Bob the Dwarf has said in his EOG) acting
as the Dwarves??? chief advisor. I engaged the Pirates in my plan against
the Gnomes and I think we worked well together for a time. Meanwhile, there
was a growing sense between the Rogues and me that the PH alliance was the
strongest on the board. Rogues were deeply concerned that my work with the
Pirates against the Gnomes was going to eliminate a buffer between us and
give the Pirate too
much growth potential. He was probably right. The
Gnomes were the only power besides the Hobbits that the Pirates could
attack and I was providing him that window rather than making him choose
for himself.
The Rogues and I engaged the PH alliance in talk of a grand partnership.
I don???t know whether this was ever a serious discussion or not. We all
flirted on email a little, but I think this all happened over Christmas
when there was a serious game lull. On the other end of that lull, the PH
inexplicably blew up over circumstances I absolutely never figured out and
then the Pirates simply imploded. You all witnessed it so I won???t go into
details here, but it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that this
was a HUGE boon for me. I would be surprised if any of us see Tom in
another game. It???s a disappointment when anyone leaves the game, but this
left a big
hole and even though I benefitted from it, it was a shame that
happened here.
5) Fall 13: The Great Stab
The KR could have cruised to victory. I mopped up the Gnomes and split
the Pirate centers with the Hobbits about 60-40, while Rogues finished up
with the Trolls and Leprechauns. Meanwhile I hit the Dwarves hard
Underground and eventually we stalemated down there. This is the moment
Jim mentioned regarding his lack of understanding of the map. I also don???t
quite know when I noticed it, but at some key moment I definitely noticed
none of his supports were crossing through the jump points, though I had
been focusing on his center where he was focusing his supports. I decided
to hit him really hard on the end points and I shattered him. I didn???t
realize he didn???t see the crossover arrows ??? I just thought he was getting
predictable so I changed
patterns and ouila. But obviously he hadn???t seen
the defense options. Regardless, by this point everybody knew that the KR
could impose its will on the board.
But rolling the Dwarves meant that a stab of the Rogues was suddenly
possible. Rogues and I could have hit each other a lot of different times
over the years and we had slipped into a pretty good pattern of trust,
trading centers to keep things clean, and keeping our counts about even.
When I rolled up the Underground, that balance seemed to change. The
decision to hit the Rogues was the hardest Diplomacy move I???ve ever made.
We were really an unstoppable team, had great strategic chemistry, and I
think we balanced out one another???s weaknesses in a lot of ways. I sent in
a regular set of agreed-upon KR orders and on a whim, drafted the stab
orders at lunch on the day of the deadline, just as a spare time what-if
(this
strategic inflection point owes itself to the fact that Congress was
in recess that week). When I pulled the trigger and sent the stab orders
to Sims, it actually made me queasy. Mike invested A LOT of time in our
strategy sessions and I knew this would hurt.
After he removed himself from the ceiling, Mike emailed me to say that if
I ever wanted to rebuild the KR, all I had to do was let him know and we
would go back to where we left off. He said this again multiple times as
the game ground on. This became relevant later.
The game result was total mayhem as Rogues moved to rally support around
stopping me. There were only five of us on the board at this point and I
knew I had to move quickly to take advantage of the weak Rogue position and
the total discombobulation of all his prospective partners. Much has been
said about the chaos in the south, but this situation brought out all
of
its neuroses, which Mike evidently added to with his mildly spastic
leadership style. Winning outright was going to be hard, though I had a
path. My strategic goal was to create an air of inevitability around my
victory and simply demoralize everybody other than Mike into not caring
what happened in the game. It almost worked. I have to give Mike a lot of
credit for rallying everybody and playing a double game against the Elves,
which cost me a clean win around Year 14/15. The Elves had apparently
grown disenchanted with Rogue leadership and attempted the most ham-handed
game-throwing exercise I???ve ever seen. Meanwhile he was being played and
eaten alive by the other three coalition members. That hurt me because I
trusted the Elves for one turn too long and made some bad moves on his
advice. Rogues were by then steadying the ship and I made a couple of
overreach plays
in an effort to grab too many Rogue home centers at once,
which allowed him to reinforce some. Then the Hobbits mysteriously grew
disenchanted with the Rogues as well and started making noises about
throwing the game. Once again, I crazily went along with this until Rogues
snapped him back into place and I was left totally out of position. The
result was a long stalemate.
6) Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
The problem with the game at this point was it was really lonely. I would
sit down the night before every deadline with nobody to talk to and what
seemed like about 700 units to sift through. Spring 19 was the
coalition???s best turn. They beat me everywhere. I had settled in at about
45 centers after peaking at around 47 or 48. It just wasn???t happening.
I decided to play the card the Rogues had dealt me when we first
parted
ways. I reached out to Rogues in an absolutely sincere effort to
reestablish the KR. My belief was that when they saw what was happening,
the Hobbits and Dwarves would immediately fold and vote for a draw. Why
wouldn???t they? Defeating them outright would take years and it would be
awful to play through. So I went into the KR Rapprochement fully intending
on a KR draw. I was very comfortable with it. It would have been a fitting
end.
But I think the Rogues were sort of responsible for what happened next.
Rather than responding to me cautiously and making me make the first moves
away from him, he infuriated the coalition members by going full bore on
them overnight (in fairness, this was partially in response to my
prediction that they would fold quickly). It may not have mattered, but a
lighter hand may have changed the human response to this. Jim-Bob is
made
of stern stuff and convinced the Hobbits that under no circumstances would
either of them vote for a draw. So that meant that the Rogues and I would
have to capture exactly 51 centers each in order to secure the KR. I was
actually still willing to play this out until I ???what-if???d??? a set of
game-winning moves the night before the F20 deadline. Rogues were
insisting I give him some centers to keep things even ??? perfectly logical.
But when I wrote out some sample orders, it was obvious I could win it all
at once. So I did, and stabbed the Rogues again. All alone with nobody to
talk to. |
| DC394 Knights EOG (dc394) chaosonejoe Oct 04, 12:06 pm |
Just a few comments from the Hobbitses:
My 'throw the game' situation was equal ruse and disgust with Mike's "I accidentally stabbed you" explanation. I understand having those sets of orders handy. During the times we tried to coordinate, there were a lot of last minute instructions, which tipped me off to some high level intrigues. It's easy to say now, but the KR arrangment was something I figured out and figured was nigh unstoppable.
(I'm just sensitive to the "I'll throw the game" public comments/strategy/retaliation and really find that approach about the worst way to game imaginable. Then again, I was willing to help pick a winner/pick against an opponent in the end. But there's a fine line there which I hope can be appreciated.)
The level of Elvish double-dealing is fascinating, but also explains why he survived as long as he did from the Hobbit onslaught
Mike's end-game approach was mystifying. Had he not spent 6 months telling us that we've invested too much to let one person win, only to say 'let us both win', it may have worked. Had he stabbed before the 'great interruptions' of moves/vacations/work, it may have worked. Had he stabbed a week or so later, it may have worked. But the 'stab while people are distracted' stoked the wrong kind of response.
I know I was convinced to some degree by Jim, but the sense of 'die trying' was foremost. Giving up meant voting for the draw.
Joe
From: "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; mrh(at)panix.com; Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; baz.dip(at)gmail.com; dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com; chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; welsh_stroud(at)msn.com; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com; Jerome Payne
<jerome777(at)ymail.com>; wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com; sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com; Spinozas(at)gmx.net; kingkovas(at)gmail.com; tiga124(at)aol.com; tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 1:33 AM
Subject: DC394 Knights EOG
Ok this is going to be long. I apologize in advance. Anyone who wasn't
involved until the end might find it boring. It???s been fantastic reading
everyone???s EOGs so far and I would like to respond to a couple of them when
I have some more time. I'm really excited about Mike Hoffman's EOG,
presumably coming soon!
Let me start by again thanking everyone in this game. It lasted forever,
but was by far the most entertaining dip game I???ve ever played ??? and I???m
only slightly biased because I won. This game had every
level of intrigue
and strategic depth you could want. During this EOG I???m going to reference
players by their Haven identities. It isn???t that I didn???t get used to
calling everybody by name ??? I just think it???s confusing to people who never
met each other in the game to read about other players by first name. I???ll
slip into first names if I???m describing the person???s play style or other
personal discussions.
My EOG is about critical inflection points ??? key moments in the game that
changed its trajectory. I want to highlight six such points from the
Knights perspective:
Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
Fall 13: The Great Stab
Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
1) Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Haven is a big complicated board. You have
to be able to discern about a
thousand tiny little names and figure out how everything connects. The
Barbarians could be forgiven for not recognizing immediately that Ice Reach
is literally the most important territory on the revised board. Look at
this space. It is a build center, has access to two sea zones and a river
that leads everywhere, possesses an impenetrable access point to the
Underground, and gives access to Dragons Teeth, which basically allows
whoever has Ice Reach to encircle the north continent before anyone even
knows what happened. Simply put: Ice Reach is the best center in the game
and the Barbarians gave it to me on turn 1 like the Indians gave up
Manhattan. By 03 I was literally alone in the Underground as the Dwarves
set off on other exploits. Capturing Diamond Mines from the Dwarves was
just a no-brainer. He had no way of wresting it from me and it
provided
the perfect cover for protecting my gem in Ice Reach and my path to Dragons
Teeth where I knew all my action was going to be in the coming fight with
the Faeries. By 03 I was firmly entrenched in the Underground and knew it
would be almost impossible to get me out of there unless somebody came at
me from above. Thus began a very long dance with the Dwarves that
eventually yielded the entire Underground and the keys to the game.
At the same time I was locking in pick-and-choose alliances with everybody
around me. I???ll digress and say that the Rogues and I hit it off
immediately. Mike (Rogues) has a fantastic strategic mind. I really
enjoyed those early-game strategy sessions, where we hatched the KR. Mike
led those sessions and I owe him a lot for focusing me and helping provide
a strategic design for the next 13 or so game years. It was a
fantastic
partnership. Mike put forward a lot of concepts and then we bantered about
specific plans. After one year the work product the Rogues and I were
producing together was clearly stronger than anything else I was
developing. The Centaurs were simultaneously organizing a pie-in-the-sky
KRCG, though the Gnomes were never very warm to it. There was also some
banter with the Nomads and Archers. But by 02 my sense is that both Mike
and I knew that the KR was going to rule the north.
2) Spring 04: KO???d the Centaurs
For awhile everyone in the north seemed to pretend like we could actually
play the game with nobody fighting anyone else north of the Faeries. But
everything in the north came to a head starting Spring 03. In one of my
few early game strategic designs where I excluded the Rogues, I engineered
a massive stab of the Centaurs along with
the Gnomes, which created a fait
accompli for the Rogues to join. Rogues weren???t thrilled and it was awful
to watch the Centaurs desperately try and save their KRCG project. They
were gone in two years. I simultaneously made a move against the Dwarves
and then settled things with him for quite some time while I solved above
ground matters. I actually think I hit the Archers that same turn. I was
a little nervous everything would unwind for me, but Mike and I just kept
rolling. We turned our attention to the Faeries and I have to admit ???
there was one turn there where Rogues left themselves completely open to a
stab, which I told the Faeries I was planning to exploit and almost did.
But the strategic relationship was too important. The Faeries and I ended
up stabbing each other simultaneously that turn, and Rogues came in to help
me clean them up.
The KR plan we hatched
in the first year had called for domination of the
central sea. We bulldozed the Faeries and had our fleets in the center by
06.
3) Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
The result of knocking out the Centaurs, otherwise known as the great
cheerleaders of the north, was a deeply uncomfortable situation where I was
playing peacemaker between the Gnomes and Rogues on either side of me. I
really liked working with the Gnomes. We had good dialogue, were always on
the same page, and he enabled me to force the Rogues??? hand in dealing with
the Centaurs. But the Gnomes were being attacked by the Trolls, to whom I
don???t think I spoke at all the entire game. And it was clear to everyone
that the Rogues were the Trolls??? benefactor. This was irritating because I
couldn???t care less about the Trolls. But as a result the Gnomes HATED the
Rogues. It was
extremely ugly. I had to keep promising the Gnomes that I
was really going to turn on the Rogues eventually ??? I came up with every
excuse in the book to delay it while the KR drove through the Faeries. I
have to hand it to Charlie (Gnomes) ??? he played a great game and I have to
assume he basically knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I
know deep down he suspected that the KR was rock solid, but he had
absolutely nowhere to else to go for friends. Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, and here he was, stuck in the middle with me. I
really respect Charlie as a player and hope to see him again in another
game soon. When it came, I didn???t execute perfectly and the Gnomes put up
a good fight. I had the Pirates in on it, though, and there was just no
way the Gnomes were going to survive us both. The key to all of this was
making sure the Rogues
moved against the Trolls first, so I protected
myself against the KR alliance coming undone at the wrong moment.
Ultimately it all came together nicely.
4) 09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
I hadn???t spent a lot of time interacting with the Pirates or really most
of the other powers outside my immediate vicinity. My squabbles and
ultimate settlement with the Dwarves had brought me into contact with the
Elves, who were clearly (as Jim-Bob the Dwarf has said in his EOG) acting
as the Dwarves??? chief advisor. I engaged the Pirates in my plan against
the Gnomes and I think we worked well together for a time. Meanwhile, there
was a growing sense between the Rogues and me that the PH alliance was the
strongest on the board. Rogues were deeply concerned that my work with the
Pirates against the Gnomes was going to eliminate a buffer between us and
give the Pirate too
much growth potential. He was probably right. The
Gnomes were the only power besides the Hobbits that the Pirates could
attack and I was providing him that window rather than making him choose
for himself.
The Rogues and I engaged the PH alliance in talk of a grand partnership.
I don???t know whether this was ever a serious discussion or not. We all
flirted on email a little, but I think this all happened over Christmas
when there was a serious game lull. On the other end of that lull, the PH
inexplicably blew up over circumstances I absolutely never figured out and
then the Pirates simply imploded. You all witnessed it so I won???t go into
details here, but it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that this
was a HUGE boon for me. I would be surprised if any of us see Tom in
another game. It???s a disappointment when anyone leaves the game, but this
left a big
hole and even though I benefitted from it, it was a shame that
happened here.
5) Fall 13: The Great Stab
The KR could have cruised to victory. I mopped up the Gnomes and split
the Pirate centers with the Hobbits about 60-40, while Rogues finished up
with the Trolls and Leprechauns. Meanwhile I hit the Dwarves hard
Underground and eventually we stalemated down there. This is the moment
Jim mentioned regarding his lack of understanding of the map. I also don???t
quite know when I noticed it, but at some key moment I definitely noticed
none of his supports were crossing through the jump points, though I had
been focusing on his center where he was focusing his supports. I decided
to hit him really hard on the end points and I shattered him. I didn???t
realize he didn???t see the crossover arrows ??? I just thought he was getting
predictable so I changed
patterns and ouila. But obviously he hadn???t seen
the defense options. Regardless, by this point everybody knew that the KR
could impose its will on the board.
But rolling the Dwarves meant that a stab of the Rogues was suddenly
possible. Rogues and I could have hit each other a lot of different times
over the years and we had slipped into a pretty good pattern of trust,
trading centers to keep things clean, and keeping our counts about even.
When I rolled up the Underground, that balance seemed to change. The
decision to hit the Rogues was the hardest Diplomacy move I???ve ever made.
We were really an unstoppable team, had great strategic chemistry, and I
think we balanced out one another???s weaknesses in a lot of ways. I sent in
a regular set of agreed-upon KR orders and on a whim, drafted the stab
orders at lunch on the day of the deadline, just as a spare time what-if
(this
strategic inflection point owes itself to the fact that Congress was
in recess that week). When I pulled the trigger and sent the stab orders
to Sims, it actually made me queasy. Mike invested A LOT of time in our
strategy sessions and I knew this would hurt.
After he removed himself from the ceiling, Mike emailed me to say that if
I ever wanted to rebuild the KR, all I had to do was let him know and we
would go back to where we left off. He said this again multiple times as
the game ground on. This became relevant later.
The game result was total mayhem as Rogues moved to rally support around
stopping me. There were only five of us on the board at this point and I
knew I had to move quickly to take advantage of the weak Rogue position and
the total discombobulation of all his prospective partners. Much has been
said about the chaos in the south, but this situation brought out all
of
its neuroses, which Mike evidently added to with his mildly spastic
leadership style. Winning outright was going to be hard, though I had a
path. My strategic goal was to create an air of inevitability around my
victory and simply demoralize everybody other than Mike into not caring
what happened in the game. It almost worked. I have to give Mike a lot of
credit for rallying everybody and playing a double game against the Elves,
which cost me a clean win around Year 14/15. The Elves had apparently
grown disenchanted with Rogue leadership and attempted the most ham-handed
game-throwing exercise I???ve ever seen. Meanwhile he was being played and
eaten alive by the other three coalition members. That hurt me because I
trusted the Elves for one turn too long and made some bad moves on his
advice. Rogues were by then steadying the ship and I made a couple of
overreach plays
in an effort to grab too many Rogue home centers at once,
which allowed him to reinforce some. Then the Hobbits mysteriously grew
disenchanted with the Rogues as well and started making noises about
throwing the game. Once again, I crazily went along with this until Rogues
snapped him back into place and I was left totally out of position. The
result was a long stalemate.
6) Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
The problem with the game at this point was it was really lonely. I would
sit down the night before every deadline with nobody to talk to and what
seemed like about 700 units to sift through. Spring 19 was the
coalition???s best turn. They beat me everywhere. I had settled in at about
45 centers after peaking at around 47 or 48. It just wasn???t happening.
I decided to play the card the Rogues had dealt me when we first
parted
ways. I reached out to Rogues in an absolutely sincere effort to
reestablish the KR. My belief was that when they saw what was happening,
the Hobbits and Dwarves would immediately fold and vote for a draw. Why
wouldn???t they? Defeating them outright would take years and it would be
awful to play through. So I went into the KR Rapprochement fully intending
on a KR draw. I was very comfortable with it. It would have been a fitting
end.
But I think the Rogues were sort of responsible for what happened next.
Rather than responding to me cautiously and making me make the first moves
away from him, he infuriated the coalition members by going full bore on
them overnight (in fairness, this was partially in response to my
prediction that they would fold quickly). It may not have mattered, but a
lighter hand may have changed the human response to this. Jim-Bob is
made
of stern stuff and convinced the Hobbits that under no circumstances would
either of them vote for a draw. So that meant that the Rogues and I would
have to capture exactly 51 centers each in order to secure the KR. I was
actually still willing to play this out until I ???what-if???d??? a set of
game-winning moves the night before the F20 deadline. Rogues were
insisting I give him some centers to keep things even ??? perfectly logical.
But when I wrote out some sample orders, it was obvious I could win it all
at once. So I did, and stabbed the Rogues again. All alone with nobody to
talk to. |
| DC394 Knights EOG (dc394) offdisc Oct 08, 04:50 pm |
Michael,
You don't know how many times I said to both Brian and Sims (commentary with my moves) that I "really hope Penner and I can work together this game, finally, instead of being enemies". But there was also a lot of both of us complimenting each other's craftiness and sneakiness to our nieghbors, who expectedly told each of us what the other was saying. We played off each other, and were played by our neighbors.
In the end, when Brian said Faeries are in our way, I agreed.
One of these days, we'll end up on the same side of an alliance, and god help whoever else is on the board!
Mike
---------
"Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
I enjoyed that EOG... thanks. It's a little comforting (for what it's worth) to know that you almost attacked the Rogues during the simultaneous stab. It was I who should have taken advantage of the no-build the Rogues experienced in year 1, but silly me thought if I leave him alone, he'll thank me by being my ally.
From: "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; mrh(at)panix.com; Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; baz.dip(at)gmail.com; dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com; chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; welsh_stroud(at)msn.com; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com; sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com; Spinozas(at)gmx.net; kingkovas(at)gmail.com; tiga124(at)aol.com; tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 12:33 AM
Subject: DC394 Knights EOG
Ok this is going to be long. I apologize in advance. Anyone who wasn't
involved until the end might find it boring. It's been fantastic reading
everyone's EOGs so far and I would like to respond to a couple of them when
I have some more time. I'm really excited about Mike Hoffman's EOG,
presumably coming soon!
Let me start by again thanking everyone in this game. It lasted forever,
but was by far the most entertaining dip game I've ever played - and I'm
only slightly biased because I won. This game had every level of intrigue
and strategic depth you could want. During this EOG I'm going to reference
players by their Haven identities. It isn't that I didn't get used to
calling everybody by name - I just think it's confusing to people who never
met each other in the game to read about other players by first name. I'll
slip into first names if I'm
describing the person's play style or other
personal discussions.
My EOG is about critical inflection points - key moments in the game that
changed its trajectory. I want to highlight six such points from the
Knights perspective:
Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Spring 04: KO'd the Centaurs
Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
Fall 13: The Great Stab
Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
1) Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Haven is a big complicated board. You have to be able to discern about a
thousand tiny little names and figure out how everything connects. The
Barbarians could be forgiven for not recognizing immediately that Ice Reach
is literally the most important territory on the revised board. Look at
this space. It is a build center, has access to two sea zones and a river
that leads everywhere, possesses an
impenetrable access point to the
Underground, and gives access to Dragons Teeth, which basically allows
whoever has Ice Reach to encircle the north continent before anyone even
knows what happened. Simply put: Ice Reach is the best center in the game
and the Barbarians gave it to me on turn 1 like the Indians gave up
Manhattan. By 03 I was literally alone in the Underground as the Dwarves
set off on other exploits. Capturing Diamond Mines from the Dwarves was
just a no-brainer. He had no way of wresting it from me and it provided
the perfect cover for protecting my gem in Ice Reach and my path to Dragons
Teeth where I knew all my action was going to be in the coming fight with
the Faeries. By 03 I was firmly entrenched in the Underground and knew it
would be almost impossible to get me out of there unless somebody came at
me from above. Thus began a very long dance with the Dwarves
that
eventually yielded the entire Underground and the keys to the game.
At the same time I was locking in pick-and-choose alliances with everybody
around me. I'll digress and say that the Rogues and I hit it off
immediately. Mike (Rogues) has a fantastic strategic mind. I really
enjoyed those early-game strategy sessions, where we hatched the KR. Mike
led those sessions and I owe him a lot for focusing me and helping provide
a strategic design for the next 13 or so game years. It was a fantastic
partnership. Mike put forward a lot of concepts and then we bantered about
specific plans. After one year the work product the Rogues and I were
producing together was clearly stronger than anything else I was
developing. The Centaurs were simultaneously organizing a pie-in-the-sky
KRCG, though the Gnomes were never very warm to it. There was also some
banter
with the Nomads and Archers. But by 02 my sense is that both Mike
and I knew that the KR was going to rule the north.
2) Spring 04: KO'd the Centaurs
For awhile everyone in the north seemed to pretend like we could actually
play the game with nobody fighting anyone else north of the Faeries. But
everything in the north came to a head starting Spring 03. In one of my
few early game strategic designs where I excluded the Rogues, I engineered
a massive stab of the Centaurs along with the Gnomes, which created a fait
accompli for the Rogues to join. Rogues weren't thrilled and it was awful
to watch the Centaurs desperately try and save their KRCG project. They
were gone in two years. I simultaneously made a move against the Dwarves
and then settled things with him for quite some time while I solved above
ground matters. I actually think I hit the
Archers that same turn. I was
a little nervous everything would unwind for me, but Mike and I just kept
rolling. We turned our attention to the Faeries and I have to admit -
there was one turn there where Rogues left themselves completely open to a
stab, which I told the Faeries I was planning to exploit and almost did.
But the strategic relationship was too important. The Faeries and I ended
up stabbing each other simultaneously that turn, and Rogues came in to help
me clean them up.
The KR plan we hatched in the first year had called for domination of the
central sea. We bulldozed the Faeries and had our fleets in the center by
06.
3) Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
The result of knocking out the Centaurs, otherwise known as the great
cheerleaders of the north, was a deeply uncomfortable situation where I was
playing peacemaker between the Gnomes and Rogues on
either side of me. I
really liked working with the Gnomes. We had good dialogue, were always on
the same page, and he enabled me to force the Rogues' hand in dealing with
the Centaurs. But the Gnomes were being attacked by the Trolls, to whom I
don't think I spoke at all the entire game. And it was clear to everyone
that the Rogues were the Trolls' benefactor. This was irritating because I
couldn't care less about the Trolls. But as a result the Gnomes HATED the
Rogues. It was extremely ugly. I had to keep promising the Gnomes that I
was really going to turn on the Rogues eventually - I came up with every
excuse in the book to delay it while the KR drove through the Faeries. I
have to hand it to Charlie (Gnomes) - he played a great game and I have to
assume he basically knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I
know deep down he suspected that
the KR was rock solid, but he had
absolutely nowhere to else to go for friends. Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, and here he was, stuck in the middle with me. I
really respect Charlie as a player and hope to see him again in another
game soon. When it came, I didn't execute perfectly and the Gnomes put up
a good fight. I had the Pirates in on it, though, and there was just no
way the Gnomes were going to survive us both. The key to all of this was
making sure the Rogues moved against the Trolls first, so I protected
myself against the KR alliance coming undone at the wrong moment.
Ultimately it all came together nicely.
4) 09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
I hadn't spent a lot of time interacting with the Pirates or really most
of the other powers outside my immediate vicinity. My squabbles and
ultimate settlement with the
Dwarves had brought me into contact with the
Elves, who were clearly (as Jim-Bob the Dwarf has said in his EOG) acting
as the Dwarves' chief advisor. I engaged the Pirates in my plan against
the Gnomes and I think we worked well together for a time. Meanwhile, there
was a growing sense between the Rogues and me that the PH alliance was the
strongest on the board. Rogues were deeply concerned that my work with the
Pirates against the Gnomes was going to eliminate a buffer between us and
give the Pirate too much growth potential. He was probably right. The
Gnomes were the only power besides the Hobbits that the Pirates could
attack and I was providing him that window rather than making him choose
for himself.
The Rogues and I engaged the PH alliance in talk of a grand partnership.
I don't know whether this was ever a serious discussion or not. We all
flirted on email a little,
but I think this all happened over Christmas
when there was a serious game lull. On the other end of that lull, the PH
inexplicably blew up over circumstances I absolutely never figured out and
then the Pirates simply imploded. You all witnessed it so I won't go into
details here, but it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that this
was a HUGE boon for me. I would be surprised if any of us see Tom in
another game. It's a disappointment when anyone leaves the game, but this
left a big hole and even though I benefitted from it, it was a shame that
happened here.
5) Fall 13: The Great Stab
The KR could have cruised to victory. I mopped up the Gnomes and split
the Pirate centers with the Hobbits about 60-40, while Rogues finished up
with the Trolls and Leprechauns. Meanwhile I hit the Dwarves hard
Underground and eventually we stalemated down
there. This is the moment
Jim mentioned regarding his lack of understanding of the map. I also don't
quite know when I noticed it, but at some key moment I definitely noticed
none of his supports were crossing through the jump points, though I had
been focusing on his center where he was focusing his supports. I decided
to hit him really hard on the end points and I shattered him. I didn't
realize he didn't see the crossover arrows - I just thought he was getting
predictable so I changed patterns and ouila. But obviously he hadn't seen
the defense options. Regardless, by this point everybody knew that the KR
could impose its will on the board.
But rolling the Dwarves meant that a stab of the Rogues was suddenly
possible. Rogues and I could have hit each other a lot of different times
over the years and we had slipped into a pretty good pattern of
trust,
trading centers to keep things clean, and keeping our counts about even.
When I rolled up the Underground, that balance seemed to change. The
decision to hit the Rogues was the hardest Diplomacy move I've ever made.
We were really an unstoppable team, had great strategic chemistry, and I
think we balanced out one another's weaknesses in a lot of ways. I sent in
a regular set of agreed-upon KR orders and on a whim, drafted the stab
orders at lunch on the day of the deadline, just as a spare time what-if
(this strategic inflection point owes itself to the fact that Congress was
in recess that week). When I pulled the trigger and sent the stab orders
to Sims, it actually made me queasy. Mike invested A LOT of time in our
strategy sessions and I knew this would hurt.
After he removed himself from the ceiling, Mike emailed me to say that if
I ever wanted to rebuild the KR, all I had to
do was let him know and we
would go back to where we left off. He said this again multiple times as
the game ground on. This became relevant later.
The game result was total mayhem as Rogues moved to rally support around
stopping me. There were only five of us on the board at this point and I
knew I had to move quickly to take advantage of the weak Rogue position and
the total discombobulation of all his prospective partners. Much has been
said about the chaos in the south, but this situation brought out all of
its neuroses, which Mike evidently added to with his mildly spastic
leadership style. Winning outright was going to be hard, though I had a
path. My strategic goal was to create an air of inevitability around my
victory and simply demoralize everybody other than Mike into not caring
what happened in the game. It almost worked. I have to give Mike a lot
of
credit for rallying everybody and playing a double game against the Elves,
which cost me a clean win around Year 14/15. The Elves had apparently
grown disenchanted with Rogue leadership and attempted the most ham-handed
game-throwing exercise I've ever seen. Meanwhile he was being played and
eaten alive by the other three coalition members. That hurt me because I
trusted the Elves for one turn too long and made some bad moves on his
advice. Rogues were by then steadying the ship and I made a couple of
overreach plays in an effort to grab too many Rogue home centers at once,
which allowed him to reinforce some. Then the Hobbits mysteriously grew
disenchanted with the Rogues as well and started making noises about
throwing the game. Once again, I crazily went along with this until Rogues
snapped him back into place and I was left totally out of position. The
result was a long
stalemate.
6) Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
The problem with the game at this point was it was really lonely. I would
sit down the night before every deadline with nobody to talk to and what
seemed like about 700 units to sift through. Spring 19 was the
coalition's best turn. They beat me everywhere. I had settled in at about
45 centers after peaking at around 47 or 48. It just wasn't happening.
I decided to play the card the Rogues had dealt me when we first parted
ways. I reached out to Rogues in an absolutely sincere effort to
reestablish the KR. My belief was that when they saw what was happening,
the Hobbits and Dwarves would immediately fold and vote for a draw. Why
wouldn't they? Defeating them outright would take years and it would be
awful to play through. So I went into the KR Rapprochement fully
intending
on a KR draw. I was very comfortable with it. It would have been a fitting
end.
But I think the Rogues were sort of responsible for what happened next.
Rather than responding to me cautiously and making me make the first moves
away from him, he infuriated the coalition members by going full bore on
them overnight (in fairness, this was partially in response to my
prediction that they would fold quickly). It may not have mattered, but a
lighter hand may have changed the human response to this. Jim-Bob is made
of stern stuff and convinced the Hobbits that under no circumstances would
either of them vote for a draw. So that meant that the Rogues and I would
have to capture exactly 51 centers each in order to secure the KR. I was
actually still willing to play this out until I "what-if'd" a set of
game-winning moves the night before the F20 deadline.
Rogues were
insisting I give him some centers to keep things even - perfectly logical.
But when I wrote out some sample orders, it was obvious I could win it all
at once. So I did, and stabbed the Rogues again. All alone with nobody to
talk to. |
| DC394 Knights EOG (dc394) offdisc Oct 08, 04:57 pm |
Fantastic EOG, Brian! I am glad that we had the chance to work together, and that I judged you correctly when you were both being sincere and lying through your teeth.
The repair bill for my ceiling is in the mail, by the way, but the damage wasn't too severe. My wife immediately calmed me down. She would have made the situation worse if she said "It's just a game". Instead, she said "wait... weren't you agonizing over doing the same to him just 2 weeks ago?" Yeah, that put the stab into a different perspective.
One thing I find amusing in these EOGs is people's perceptions of my email. My style didn't change in discussing moves with anyone I was allying with. But to hear Brian describe it is as "helping provide
a strategic design" and "bantering about specific plans", and then contrasted by Jim & Joe calling it "heavy-handed" and basically puppet-mastery, is just funny. Different strokes for different folks, but I stroke everyone the same way.
Mike
---------
"Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:33 PM, <diplomacy(at)diffell.net> wrote:
Ok this is going to be long. I apologize in advance. Anyone who wasn't
involved until the end might find it boring. It's been fantastic reading
everyone's EOGs so far and I would like to respond to a couple of them when
I have some more time. I'm really excited about Mike Hoffman's EOG,
presumably coming soon!
Let me start by again thanking everyone in this game. It lasted forever,
but was by far the most entertaining dip game I've ever played - and I'm
only slightly biased because I won. This game had every level of intrigue
and strategic depth you could want. During this EOG I'm going to reference
players by their Haven identities. It isn't that I didn't get used to
calling everybody by name - I just think it's confusing to people who never
met each other in the game to read about other players by first name. I'll
slip into first names if I'm describing the person's play style or other
personal discussions.
My EOG is about critical inflection points - key moments in the game that
changed its trajectory. I want to highlight six such points from the
Knights perspective:
Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Spring 04: KO'd the Centaurs
Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
Fall 13: The Great Stab
Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
1) Spring 01: Took Ice Reach
Haven is a big complicated board. You have to be able to discern about a
thousand tiny little names and figure out how everything connects. The
Barbarians could be forgiven for not recognizing immediately that Ice Reach
is literally the most important territory on the revised board. Look at
this space. It is a build center, has access to two sea zones and a river
that leads everywhere, possesses an impenetrable access point to the
Underground, and gives access to Dragons Teeth, which basically allows
whoever has Ice Reach to encircle the north continent before anyone even
knows what happened. Simply put: Ice Reach is the best center in the game
and the Barbarians gave it to me on turn 1 like the Indians gave up
Manhattan. By 03 I was literally alone in the Underground as the Dwarves
set off on other exploits. Capturing Diamond Mines from the Dwarves was
just a no-brainer. He had no way of wresting it from me and it provided
the perfect cover for protecting my gem in Ice Reach and my path to Dragons
Teeth where I knew all my action was going to be in the coming fight with
the Faeries. By 03 I was firmly entrenched in the Underground and knew it
would be almost impossible to get me out of there unless somebody came at
me from above. Thus began a very long dance with the Dwarves that
eventually yielded the entire Underground and the keys to the game.
At the same time I was locking in pick-and-choose alliances with everybody
around me. I'll digress and say that the Rogues and I hit it off
immediately. Mike (Rogues) has a fantastic strategic mind. I really
enjoyed those early-game strategy sessions, where we hatched the KR. Mike
led those sessions and I owe him a lot for focusing me and helping provide
a strategic design for the next 13 or so game years. It was a fantastic
partnership. Mike put forward a lot of concepts and then we bantered about
specific plans. After one year the work product the Rogues and I were
producing together was clearly stronger than anything else I was
developing. The Centaurs were simultaneously organizing a pie-in-the-sky
KRCG, though the Gnomes were never very warm to it. There was also some
banter with the Nomads and Archers. But by 02 my sense is that both Mike
and I knew that the KR was going to rule the north.
2) Spring 04: KO'd the Centaurs
For awhile everyone in the north seemed to pretend like we could actually
play the game with nobody fighting anyone else north of the Faeries. But
everything in the north came to a head starting Spring 03. In one of my
few early game strategic designs where I excluded the Rogues, I engineered
a massive stab of the Centaurs along with the Gnomes, which created a fait
accompli for the Rogues to join. Rogues weren't thrilled and it was awful
to watch the Centaurs desperately try and save their KRCG project. They
were gone in two years. I simultaneously made a move against the Dwarves
and then settled things with him for quite some time while I solved above
ground matters. I actually think I hit the Archers that same turn. I was
a little nervous everything would unwind for me, but Mike and I just kept
rolling. We turned our attention to the Faeries and I have to admit -
there was one turn there where Rogues left themselves completely open to a
stab, which I told the Faeries I was planning to exploit and almost did.
But the strategic relationship was too important. The Faeries and I ended
up stabbing each other simultaneously that turn, and Rogues came in to help
me clean them up.
The KR plan we hatched in the first year had called for domination of the
central sea. We bulldozed the Faeries and had our fleets in the center by
06.
3) Spring 08: Demise of the Gnomes
The result of knocking out the Centaurs, otherwise known as the great
cheerleaders of the north, was a deeply uncomfortable situation where I was
playing peacemaker between the Gnomes and Rogues on either side of me. I
really liked working with the Gnomes. We had good dialogue, were always on
the same page, and he enabled me to force the Rogues' hand in dealing with
the Centaurs. But the Gnomes were being attacked by the Trolls, to whom I
don't think I spoke at all the entire game. And it was clear to everyone
that the Rogues were the Trolls' benefactor. This was irritating because I
couldn't care less about the Trolls. But as a result the Gnomes HATED the
Rogues. It was extremely ugly. I had to keep promising the Gnomes that I
was really going to turn on the Rogues eventually - I came up with every
excuse in the book to delay it while the KR drove through the Faeries. I
have to hand it to Charlie (Gnomes) - he played a great game and I have to
assume he basically knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I
know deep down he suspected that the KR was rock solid, but he had
absolutely nowhere to else to go for friends. Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, and here he was, stuck in the middle with me. I
really respect Charlie as a player and hope to see him again in another
game soon. When it came, I didn't execute perfectly and the Gnomes put up
a good fight. I had the Pirates in on it, though, and there was just no
way the Gnomes were going to survive us both. The key to all of this was
making sure the Rogues moved against the Trolls first, so I protected
myself against the KR alliance coming undone at the wrong moment.
Ultimately it all came together nicely.
4) 09-11: The Implosion of the Pirates
I hadn't spent a lot of time interacting with the Pirates or really most
of the other powers outside my immediate vicinity. My squabbles and
ultimate settlement with the Dwarves had brought me into contact with the
Elves, who were clearly (as Jim-Bob the Dwarf has said in his EOG) acting
as the Dwarves' chief advisor. I engaged the Pirates in my plan against
the Gnomes and I think we worked well together for a time. Meanwhile, there
was a growing sense between the Rogues and me that the PH alliance was the
strongest on the board. Rogues were deeply concerned that my work with the
Pirates against the Gnomes was going to eliminate a buffer between us and
give the Pirate too much growth potential. He was probably right. The
Gnomes were the only power besides the Hobbits that the Pirates could
attack and I was providing him that window rather than making him choose
for himself.
The Rogues and I engaged the PH alliance in talk of a grand partnership.
I don't know whether this was ever a serious discussion or not. We all
flirted on email a little, but I think this all happened over Christmas
when there was a serious game lull. On the other end of that lull, the PH
inexplicably blew up over circumstances I absolutely never figured out and
then the Pirates simply imploded. You all witnessed it so I won't go into
details here, but it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that this
was a HUGE boon for me. I would be surprised if any of us see Tom in
another game. It's a disappointment when anyone leaves the game, but this
left a big hole and even though I benefitted from it, it was a shame that
happened here.
5) Fall 13: The Great Stab
The KR could have cruised to victory. I mopped up the Gnomes and split
the Pirate centers with the Hobbits about 60-40, while Rogues finished up
with the Trolls and Leprechauns. Meanwhile I hit the Dwarves hard
Underground and eventually we stalemated down there. This is the moment
Jim mentioned regarding his lack of understanding of the map. I also don't
quite know when I noticed it, but at some key moment I definitely noticed
none of his supports were crossing through the jump points, though I had
been focusing on his center where he was focusing his supports. I decided
to hit him really hard on the end points and I shattered him. I didn't
realize he didn't see the crossover arrows - I just thought he was getting
predictable so I changed patterns and ouila. But obviously he hadn't seen
the defense options. Regardless, by this point everybody knew that the KR
could impose its will on the board.
But rolling the Dwarves meant that a stab of the Rogues was suddenly
possible. Rogues and I could have hit each other a lot of different times
over the years and we had slipped into a pretty good pattern of trust,
trading centers to keep things clean, and keeping our counts about even.
When I rolled up the Underground, that balance seemed to change. The
decision to hit the Rogues was the hardest Diplomacy move I've ever made.
We were really an unstoppable team, had great strategic chemistry, and I
think we balanced out one another's weaknesses in a lot of ways. I sent in
a regular set of agreed-upon KR orders and on a whim, drafted the stab
orders at lunch on the day of the deadline, just as a spare time what-if
(this strategic inflection point owes itself to the fact that Congress was
in recess that week). When I pulled the trigger and sent the stab orders
to Sims, it actually made me queasy. Mike invested A LOT of time in our
strategy sessions and I knew this would hurt.
After he removed himself from the ceiling, Mike emailed me to say that if
I ever wanted to rebuild the KR, all I had to do was let him know and we
would go back to where we left off. He said this again multiple times as
the game ground on. This became relevant later.
The game result was total mayhem as Rogues moved to rally support around
stopping me. There were only five of us on the board at this point and I
knew I had to move quickly to take advantage of the weak Rogue position and
the total discombobulation of all his prospective partners. Much has been
said about the chaos in the south, but this situation brought out all of
its neuroses, which Mike evidently added to with his mildly spastic
leadership style. Winning outright was going to be hard, though I had a
path. My strategic goal was to create an air of inevitability around my
victory and simply demoralize everybody other than Mike into not caring
what happened in the game. It almost worked. I have to give Mike a lot of
credit for rallying everybody and playing a double game against the Elves,
which cost me a clean win around Year 14/15. The Elves had apparently
grown disenchanted with Rogue leadership and attempted the most ham-handed
game-throwing exercise I've ever seen. Meanwhile he was being played and
eaten alive by the other three coalition members. That hurt me because I
trusted the Elves for one turn too long and made some bad moves on his
advice. Rogues were by then steadying the ship and I made a couple of
overreach plays in an effort to grab too many Rogue home centers at once,
which allowed him to reinforce some. Then the Hobbits mysteriously grew
disenchanted with the Rogues as well and started making noises about
throwing the game. Once again, I crazily went along with this until Rogues
snapped him back into place and I was left totally out of position. The
result was a long stalemate.
6) Fall 19: The Great Rapprochement
The problem with the game at this point was it was really lonely. I would
sit down the night before every deadline with nobody to talk to and what
seemed like about 700 units to sift through. Spring 19 was the
coalition's best turn. They beat me everywhere. I had settled in at about
45 centers after peaking at around 47 or 48. It just wasn't happening.
I decided to play the card the Rogues had dealt me when we first parted
ways. I reached out to Rogues in an absolutely sincere effort to
reestablish the KR. My belief was that when they saw what was happening,
the Hobbits and Dwarves would immediately fold and vote for a draw. Why
wouldn't they? Defeating them outright would take years and it would be
awful to play through. So I went into the KR Rapprochement fully intending
on a KR draw. I was very comfortable with it. It would have been a fitting
end.
But I think the Rogues were sort of responsible for what happened next.
Rather than responding to me cautiously and making me make the first moves
away from him, he infuriated the coalition members by going full bore on
them overnight (in fairness, this was partially in response to my
prediction that they would fold quickly). It may not have mattered, but a
lighter hand may have changed the human response to this. Jim-Bob is made
of stern stuff and convinced the Hobbits that under no circumstances would
either of them vote for a draw. So that meant that the Rogues and I would
have to capture exactly 51 centers each in order to secure the KR. I was
actually still willing to play this out until I "what-if'd" a set of
game-winning moves the night before the F20 deadline. Rogues were
insisting I give him some centers to keep things even - perfectly logical.
But when I wrote out some sample orders, it was obvious I could win it all
at once. So I did, and stabbed the Rogues again. All alone with nobody to
talk to. |
| DC406: Spring 11 Final! - offdisc (Oct 03, 2012, 11:00 pm) |
Hi All,That Debate was AWESOME -- from a style perspective, not a content view. I am a HS debate coach, and I teach my kids that presentation is just as important as facts and evidence. Romney may have been lying his ass off, but he looked powerful doing it. Obama has the power, he has the position, but he looked scared and stumbled over his words. Will it make a difference? Was he playing possum for the next debate? Time will tell.
Much like time will tell if the Nomads have a secret plan forming with the Archers. They may seem done, but anything's possible.
Retreats for Spring 11=======================
Gnomes: A Hundred Acre Wood - DrynwynOgres: F Newa River - Groves of AcademeUndead: F EAST SEA OF SHADOWS - Istar
Deadline for Fall 11 is Monday, 10/8 unless I get all moves earlier. (I have some in hand already!)
Mike---------
"Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson[Reply] |
| Eleves Reply to Dwarves EoG - mjn82 (Oct 03, 2012, 3:15 pm) |
It was, but I also made little effort to Dip with you prior to your move in 1901. I convinced myself that you would find yourself in a defensive move quickly and wouldn't be a factor down south for a while.
From: Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>; Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>;
"welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Eleves Reply to Dwarves EoG
Ah, that makes EVERYTHING clear. Yes, Chris is correct. As I noted, when Chris was my ally, I basically backed off to whatever he wanted to do until he was not willing to stop the solo. Ultimately, I shoot that arrow at BOTH Chris and Mike. I would have done what needed to be done to stop Brian before that.
Thanks, Chris, I really did enjoy our deceptions, I don't think anyone got how closely we were working together to the end.
And to Mike, yes, I now see how BIG a choice I made in Spring 1901, this was of course driven by my alliance with Chris, so to help him I needed to own Devil's. Yikes, this really WAS a huge thing..... and I had no idea.
Jim-Bob
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Mine and Jim's success as allies for most of the game speaks for itself, so I won't add anything to his account. However, working with Jim gave me an early glimpse at the difference in play styles that would lead to our falling out.
Jim's first instinct when dealing with larger powers seemed to be to find an accommodation with them. As he notes in his EoG, Jim was not so much annoyed with Brian for invading the Underground as he was proud of being able to negotiate a shared lease of the space. And in the endgame when Mike pushed Jim eastward across the southern continent while gobbling his centers from behind, I suspect Jim felt proud to be leading the vanguard to stop the solo.
I, on the other hand, spent the whole game picking fights with the larger powers, even though that's a really ineffective path to becoming a larger power oneself. First I took on the Hobbits,
then the Pirates, and then the Rogues. I never had a chance of defeating any of them, as they were better players who had gotten off to better starts than I did, but I enjoyed fighting for a noble but losing cause more than I would have playing lackey to any of them.
The difference in our styles of play did not prove a problem between me and Jim until Brian became the sole solo threat and it was time to work with Mike. Which I refused to do.
I had what I think are good reasons for refusing. The first was that I knew refraining from attacking Mike wouldn't mean he would stop attacking me. And he never did.
The second one was that Mike had an annoying habit of labeling my efforts at self-defense as "attacking him." During the game I described Mike as "a player who punches you in the face and then yells at you for bruising his hand."
The third was that I knew even if Mike eased up in his relentless push against my borders, as
soon as Brian's solo effort was stopped he would come crashing down on them again. Mike admitted this to me himself: "As for my future intentions, you were pretty spot on -- IF Brian had turned back quickly, I would have continued on for the 2-way Draw we had been working towards."
Jim says in his EoG that we have a difference in opinion over which of us stabbed the other, but were he to look over the results, he wouldn't be able to point out one instance where I took a center from him or even tried to. However, I did try to take centers from Mike and to Jim, that was the same as taking one from Jim and, even more unforgivably, from the effort to stop the solo.
And from the vantage of Jim's style of play, he is not wrong. However, after reading about the sour taste Mike left in just about everyone's mouth, including Jim's, by the end of the game, I am happy that I made a different choice in the endgame than Jim.
Chris
P.S.
That choice did not involve throwing the game to Brian. I offered to throw the game to him, in hopes that it would lead Brian to support me into Mike's centers. But Brian instead insisted that I instead support him into Mike's centers, which I always found a reason not to do. So if Jim found my efforts to throw the game to Brian poorly and intermittently carried out, it's because they were never legitimate efforts, a fact obvious to a neutral observer. Mike Sims after I was eliminated expressed surprise that Brian didn't find some way to exploit me after Jim stabbed me. It turns out Brian didn't need me for the solo. He had Mike.
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Norton" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>, "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>, "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:45 AM
I'm so busy and so far behind, I think I'm going to take a stab at a "shortie" and see how it flies.
I have played many of the large variants, especially those designed by David Cohen. The two things I've learned are:
1) Gotta play like a shark, if you don't keep moving, you die. If you stagnate in center growth you fall behind and become a target.
2) You gotta have at least ONE really true blue ally who you try to hide from others.
For me that was Chris and the Elves. How many of you realized how PERFECTLY correlated we were all up to the time where we weren't? And that was when only Joe, Mike, Brian and me were the other ones left....
And more than that, I let Chris drive the bus on almost all of our back and forth that we did. If you're going to work in complete concert, you must avoid conflict at all costs. I did. I think that was successful, I made it to the endgame surprisingly easily, I thought. Various people like the Leprechauns who ended up faring poorly I hardly talked to, I only followed Chris' lead on when to support them, when to ignore them, and when to attack them. Chris really has the clearer view of how all that went. This especially included interaction with Joe and the Hobbits and Mike and the Rogues. I really only picked up direct negotiations with Mike and Joe after Chris (in my view) went off the deep end at the end. I suspect Chris and I have diametrically opposed views of the end, I think Chris stabbed me and Chris thinks I stabbed him. Interesting, I wonder if Brian manipulated that?? He might
have.
Anyway, BUT, I did take the lead in the negotiations with Brian and the Knights. My view was "keep everyone but one player out of the Underworld" and try to work with just one person who I permitted down there. The early agreements with Brian on that score were highly successful for both of us. Brian helped me keep the Underground clear of anyone else, which I could not have accomplished on my own, and it gave me play to seek to control the three southern exits from the Underground.
This worked fine up TO the point where Brian and I had to come to blows, this was also where it seemed Chris was toadying to Brian (throwing him the win, but badly and intermittently). The first thing that happened is that Brian had people popping up in the underground in weird ways, and TO BE HONEST I wasn't paying attention. I didn't see ANY of the wraparound boxes. This went on for about three game years where I didn't see the tactics right, so I was outmaneuvered. I'm not sure when Brian figured out that I didn't understand it. And Mike Sims NEEDS to make these little boxes that just aren't big enough on the screen bigger in the next map version. But I didn't get it. I need to emphasize, MY FAULT. But when I finally figured it out, I decided I had one main goal, survive and put the hit back on Brian. Stop him from winning, and ultimately I wanted to beat him all the way back. First
Chris got in the way of that, we took him out. Then Mike stabbed me just as we were about to succeed and make that progress, so I tried to hit Mike back even though I knew my cause was lost. Brian would win.
Mike will tell you that he thought Joe and I would give up and vote a two way for Brian and Mike. If he had probed me about that in any way whatsoever he would have found two things:
1) I like two ways, I have more two way DRAWS than solos, but every one of them is an ON THE BOARD two way, because
2) You NEVER vote a two way DRAW, you don't call them TWO WAY WINS (ever!!!!), and you make them play out on the board, and that is FUN, exciting, and makes for great endgame nailbiting Diplomacy.
I thought we might end up there IF the attack on Brian failed, but I first wanted to take Mt Nimro back and Mike needed to be WAY closer than Brian. In my view, Mike's stab was way too soon for that to happen. I actually might have cooperated in trying to be eliminated in a timely way to achieve that. But not until I achieved my goal, I would have asked to have Mt. Nimro be the last center taken, I think that would have been fitting. But instead, Brian played brilliantly and deserved his solo. Mike Sims was great, he should take my map comments as constructive criticism, I do LIKE the map and the way it works, even more so now that I understand how the Underground works. And we all need GIANT screens to play it, mine on my four computers, none of them are large enough!!!!
BUT, I will be interested in Mike's justification of when he did the stab, I think there was way too much "real life intrusion" into how all that played out. I had two giant grant proposals due (that thankfully are now out), Joe was moving house, and Mike was taking a long vacation. These things should not have influenced the game outcome, but I think they did.
Cheers, I really enjoyed playing with you all and apologies for not having time for the longer version of this...
Jim
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Michael Norton <http://mc/compose?to=mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IV
Mike
From: Michael Penner <http://mc/compose?to=mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <http://mc/compose?to=clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <http://mc/compose?to=jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=mrh(at)panix.com" <http://mc/compose?to=mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <http://mc/compose?to=mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <http://mc/compose?to=diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "http://mc/compose?to=baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <http://mc/compose?to=chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <http://mc/compose?to=welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <http://mc/compose?to=kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <http://mc/compose?to=jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <http://mc/compose?to=wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <http://mc/compose?to=mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <http://mc/compose?to=Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "http://mc/compose?to=kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=tiga124(at)aol.com" <http://mc/compose?to=tiga124(at)aol.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <http://mc/compose?to=tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <http://mc/compose?to=dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the fight. I remember being frustrated that the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch
their differences to help in this matter.So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!mvp
[Reply] |
| Eleves Reply to Dwarves EoG - Jim-Bob (Oct 03, 2012, 1:04 pm) |
Ah, that makes EVERYTHING clear. Yes, Chris is correct. As I noted, when Chris was my ally, I basically backed off to whatever he wanted to do until he was not willing to stop the solo. Ultimately, I shoot that arrow at BOTH Chris and Mike. I would have done what needed to be done to stop Brian before that.
Thanks, Chris, I really did enjoy our deceptions, I don't think anyone got how closely we were working together to the end. And to Mike, yes, I now see how BIG a choice I made in Spring 1901, this was of course driven by my alliance with Chris, so to help him I needed to own Devil's. Yikes, this really WAS a huge thing..... and I had no idea.
Jim-Bob
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Mine and Jim's success as allies for most of the game speaks for itself,
so I won't add anything to his account. However, working with Jim gave
me an early glimpse at the difference in play styles that would lead to
our falling out.
Jim's first instinct when dealing with larger
powers seemed to be to find an accommodation with them. As he notes in
his EoG, Jim was not so much annoyed with Brian for invading the
Underground as he was proud of being able to negotiate a shared lease of
the space. And in the endgame when Mike pushed Jim eastward across the
southern continent while gobbling his centers from behind, I suspect Jim
felt proud to be leading the vanguard to stop the solo.
I, on the other hand, spent the whole game picking fights with the larger powers, even though that's a really ineffective path to becoming a larger power oneself. First I took on the Hobbits, then the Pirates, and then the Rogues. I never had a chance of defeating any of them, as they were better players who had gotten off to better starts than I did, but I enjoyed fighting for a noble but losing cause more than I would have playing lackey to any of them.
The difference in our styles of play did not prove a problem between me and Jim until Brian became the sole solo threat and it was time to work with Mike. Which I refused to do.
I had what I think are good reasons for refusing. The first was that I knew refraining from attacking Mike wouldn't mean he would stop attacking me. And he never did.
The second one was that Mike had an annoying habit of labeling my efforts at
self-defense as "attacking him." During the game I described Mike as "a player who punches you in the face and then yells at you for bruising his hand."
The third was that I knew even if Mike eased up in his relentless push against my borders, as soon as Brian's solo effort was stopped he would come crashing down on them again. Mike admitted this to me himself: "As for my future intentions, you were pretty spot on -- IF Brian had
turned back quickly, I would have continued on for the 2-way Draw we had
been working towards."
Jim says in his EoG that we have a difference in opinion over which of us stabbed the other, but were he to look over the results, he wouldn't be able to point out one instance where I took a center from him or even tried to. However, I did try to take centers from Mike and to Jim, that was the same as taking one from Jim and, even more unforgivably, from the effort to stop the solo.
And from the vantage of Jim's style of play, he is not wrong. However, after reading about the sour taste Mike left in just about everyone's mouth, including Jim's, by the end of the game, I am happy that I made a different choice in the endgame than Jim.
Chris
P.S. That choice did not involve throwing the game to Brian. I offered to throw the game to him, in hopes that it would lead Brian to support me into Mike's centers. But Brian instead insisted that I instead support him into Mike's centers, which I always found a
reason not to do. So if Jim found my efforts to throw the game to Brian poorly and intermittently carried out, it's because they were never legitimate efforts, a fact obvious to a neutral observer. Mike Sims after I was eliminated expressed surprise that Brian didn't find some way to exploit me after Jim stabbed me. It turns out Brian didn't need me for the solo. He had Mike.
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Norton" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>, "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>,
"baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:45 AM
I'm so busy and so far behind, I think I'm going to take a stab at a "shortie" and see how it flies. I have played many
of the large variants, especially those designed by David Cohen. The two things I've learned are:
1) Gotta play like a shark, if you don't keep moving, you die. If you stagnate in center growth you fall behind and become a target. 2) You gotta have at least ONE really true blue ally who you try to hide from others.
For me that was Chris and the Elves. How many of you realized how PERFECTLY correlated we were all up to the time where we weren't? And that was when only Joe, Mike, Brian and me were the other ones left....
And more than that, I let Chris drive the bus on almost all of our back and forth that we did. If you're going to work in complete concert, you must avoid conflict at all costs. I did. I think that was successful, I made it to the endgame surprisingly easily, I thought. Various people like the Leprechauns who ended up faring poorly I hardly talked to, I only followed Chris' lead on when to support them, when to ignore them, and when to attack them. Chris really has the clearer view of how all that went. This especially included interaction with Joe and the Hobbits and Mike and the Rogues. I really only picked up direct negotiations with Mike and Joe after Chris (in my view) went off the deep end at the end. I suspect Chris and I have diametrically opposed views of the end, I think Chris stabbed me and Chris thinks I stabbed him. Interesting, I wonder if Brian manipulated
that?? He might have.
Anyway, BUT, I did take the lead in the negotiations with Brian and the Knights. My view was "keep everyone but one player out of the Underworld" and try to work with just one person who I permitted down there. The early agreements with Brian on that score were highly successful for both of us. Brian helped me keep the Underground clear of anyone else, which I could not have accomplished on my own, and it gave me play to seek to control the three southern exits from the Underground.
This worked fine up TO the point where Brian and I had to come to blows, this was also where it seemed Chris was toadying to Brian (throwing him the win, but badly and intermittently). The first thing that happened is that Brian had people popping up in the underground in weird ways, and TO BE HONEST I wasn't paying attention. I didn't see ANY of the wraparound boxes. This went on for about three game years where I didn't see the tactics right, so I was outmaneuvered. I'm not sure when Brian figured out that I didn't understand it. And Mike Sims NEEDS to make these little boxes that just aren't big enough on the screen bigger in the next map version. But I didn't get it. I need to emphasize, MY FAULT. But when I finally figured it out, I decided I had one main goal, survive and put the hit back on Brian. Stop him from winning, and ultimately I wanted to beat him all the way back. First
Chris got in the way of that, we took him out. Then Mike stabbed me just as we were about to succeed and make that progress, so I tried to hit Mike back even though I knew my cause was lost. Brian would win.
Mike will tell you that he thought Joe and I would give up and vote a two way for Brian and Mike. If he had probed me about that in any way whatsoever he would have found two things:
1) I like two ways, I have more two way DRAWS than solos, but every one of them is an ON THE BOARD two way, because 2) You NEVER vote a two way DRAW, you don't call them TWO WAY WINS (ever!!!!), and you make them play out on the board, and that is FUN, exciting, and makes for great endgame nailbiting Diplomacy.
I thought we might end up there IF the attack on Brian failed, but I first wanted to take Mt Nimro back and Mike needed to be WAY closer than Brian. In my view, Mike's stab was way too soon for that to happen. I actually might have cooperated in trying to be eliminated in a timely way to achieve that. But not until I achieved my goal, I would have asked to have Mt. Nimro be the last center taken, I think that would have been fitting. But instead, Brian played brilliantly and deserved his solo. Mike Sims was great, he should take my map comments as constructive criticism, I do LIKE the map and the way it works, even more so now that I understand how the Underground works. And we all need GIANT screens to play it, mine on my four computers, none of them are large enough!!!!
BUT, I will be interested in Mike's justification of when he did the stab, I think there was way too much "real life intrusion" into how all that played out. I had two giant grant proposals due (that thankfully are now out), Joe was moving house, and Mike was taking a long vacation. These things should not have influenced the game outcome, but I think they did.
Cheers, I really enjoyed playing with you all and apologies for not having time for the longer version of this...Jim
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IVMike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>;
Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net"
<tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...
Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the
fight. I remember being frustrated that
the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.
So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.
So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!
mvp
[Reply] |
| Eleves Reply to Dwarves EoG - The_Blurbist (Oct 03, 2012, 12:58 pm) |
Mine and Jim's success as allies for most of the game speaks for itself,
so I won't add anything to his account. However, working with Jim gave
me an early glimpse at the difference in play styles that would lead to
our falling out.
Jim's first instinct when dealing with larger
powers seemed to be to find an accommodation with them. As he notes in
his EoG, Jim was not so much annoyed with Brian for invading the
Underground as he was proud of being able to negotiate a shared lease of
the space. And in the endgame when Mike pushed Jim eastward across the
southern continent while gobbling his centers from behind, I suspect Jim
felt proud to be leading the vanguard to stop the solo.
I, on the other hand, spent the whole game picking fights with the larger powers, even though that's a really ineffective path to becoming a larger power oneself. First I took on the Hobbits, then the Pirates, and then the Rogues. I never had a chance of defeating any of them, as they were better players who had gotten off to better starts than I did, but I enjoyed fighting for a noble but losing cause more than I would have playing lackey to any of them.
The difference in our styles of play did not prove a problem between me and Jim until Brian became the sole solo threat and it was time to work with Mike. Which I refused to do.
I had what I think are good reasons for refusing. The first was that I knew refraining from attacking Mike wouldn't mean he would stop attacking me. And he never did.
The second one was that Mike had an annoying habit of labeling my efforts at
self-defense as "attacking him." During the game I described Mike as "a player who punches you in the face and then yells at you for bruising his hand."
The third was that I knew even if Mike eased up in his relentless push against my borders, as soon as Brian's solo effort was stopped he would come crashing down on them again. Mike admitted this to me himself: "As for my future intentions, you were pretty spot on -- IF Brian had
turned back quickly, I would have continued on for the 2-way Draw we had
been working towards."
Jim says in his EoG that we have a difference in opinion over which of us stabbed the other, but were he to look over the results, he wouldn't be able to point out one instance where I took a center from him or even tried to. However, I did try to take centers from Mike and to Jim, that was the same as taking one from Jim and, even more unforgivably, from the effort to stop the solo.
And from the vantage of Jim's style of play, he is not wrong. However, after reading about the sour taste Mike left in just about everyone's mouth, including Jim's, by the end of the game, I am happy that I made a different choice in the endgame than Jim.
Chris
P.S. That choice did not involve throwing the game to Brian. I offered to throw the game to him, in hopes that it would lead Brian to support me into Mike's centers. But Brian instead insisted that I instead support him into Mike's centers, which I always found a
reason not to do. So if Jim found my efforts to throw the game to Brian poorly and intermittently carried out, it's because they were never legitimate efforts, a fact obvious to a neutral observer. Mike Sims after I was eliminated expressed surprise that Brian didn't find some way to exploit me after Jim stabbed me. It turns out Brian didn't need me for the solo. He had Mike.
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Norton" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>, "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>,
"baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:45 AM
I'm so busy and so far behind, I think I'm going to take a stab at a "shortie" and see how it flies. I have played many
of the large variants, especially those designed by David Cohen. The two things I've learned are:
1) Gotta play like a shark, if you don't keep moving, you die. If you stagnate in center growth you fall behind and become a target. 2) You gotta have at least ONE really true blue ally who you try to hide from others.
For me that was Chris and the Elves. How many of you realized how PERFECTLY correlated we were all up to the time where we weren't? And that was when only Joe, Mike, Brian and me were the other ones left....
And more than that, I let Chris drive the bus on almost all of our back and forth that we did. If you're going to work in complete concert, you must avoid conflict at all costs. I did. I think that was successful, I made it to the endgame surprisingly easily, I thought. Various people like the Leprechauns who ended up faring poorly I hardly talked to, I only followed Chris' lead on when to support them, when to ignore them, and when to attack them. Chris really has the clearer view of how all that went. This especially included interaction with Joe and the Hobbits and Mike and the Rogues. I really only picked up direct negotiations with Mike and Joe after Chris (in my view) went off the deep end at the end. I suspect Chris and I have diametrically opposed views of the end, I think Chris stabbed me and Chris thinks I stabbed him. Interesting, I wonder if Brian manipulated
that?? He might have.
Anyway, BUT, I did take the lead in the negotiations with Brian and the Knights. My view was "keep everyone but one player out of the Underworld" and try to work with just one person who I permitted down there. The early agreements with Brian on that score were highly successful for both of us. Brian helped me keep the Underground clear of anyone else, which I could not have accomplished on my own, and it gave me play to seek to control the three southern exits from the Underground.
This worked fine up TO the point where Brian and I had to come to blows, this was also where it seemed Chris was toadying to Brian (throwing him the win, but badly and intermittently). The first thing that happened is that Brian had people popping up in the underground in weird ways, and TO BE HONEST I wasn't paying attention. I didn't see ANY of the wraparound boxes. This went on for about three game years where I didn't see the tactics right, so I was outmaneuvered. I'm not sure when Brian figured out that I didn't understand it. And Mike Sims NEEDS to make these little boxes that just aren't big enough on the screen bigger in the next map version. But I didn't get it. I need to emphasize, MY FAULT. But when I finally figured it out, I decided I had one main goal, survive and put the hit back on Brian. Stop him from winning, and ultimately I wanted to beat him all the way back. First
Chris got in the way of that, we took him out. Then Mike stabbed me just as we were about to succeed and make that progress, so I tried to hit Mike back even though I knew my cause was lost. Brian would win.
Mike will tell you that he thought Joe and I would give up and vote a two way for Brian and Mike. If he had probed me about that in any way whatsoever he would have found two things:
1) I like two ways, I have more two way DRAWS than solos, but every one of them is an ON THE BOARD two way, because 2) You NEVER vote a two way DRAW, you don't call them TWO WAY WINS (ever!!!!), and you make them play out on the board, and that is FUN, exciting, and makes for great endgame nailbiting Diplomacy.
I thought we might end up there IF the attack on Brian failed, but I first wanted to take Mt Nimro back and Mike needed to be WAY closer than Brian. In my view, Mike's stab was way too soon for that to happen. I actually might have cooperated in trying to be eliminated in a timely way to achieve that. But not until I achieved my goal, I would have asked to have Mt. Nimro be the last center taken, I think that would have been fitting. But instead, Brian played brilliantly and deserved his solo. Mike Sims was great, he should take my map comments as constructive criticism, I do LIKE the map and the way it works, even more so now that I understand how the Underground works. And we all need GIANT screens to play it, mine on my four computers, none of them are large enough!!!!
BUT, I will be interested in Mike's justification of when he did the stab, I think there was way too much "real life intrusion" into how all that played out. I had two giant grant proposals due (that thankfully are now out), Joe was moving house, and Mike was taking a long vacation. These things should not have influenced the game outcome, but I think they did.
Cheers, I really enjoyed playing with you all and apologies for not having time for the longer version of this...Jim
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IVMike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>;
Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net"
<tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...
Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the
fight. I remember being frustrated that
the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.
So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.
So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!
mvp
[Reply] |
| Eleves Reply to Dwarves EoG (dc394) Jim-Bob Oct 03, 01:04 pm |
Ah, that makes EVERYTHING clear. Yes, Chris is correct. As I noted, when Chris was my ally, I basically backed off to whatever he wanted to do until he was not willing to stop the solo. Ultimately, I shoot that arrow at BOTH Chris and Mike. I would have done what needed to be done to stop Brian before that.
Thanks, Chris, I really did enjoy our deceptions, I don't think anyone got how closely we were working together to the end. And to Mike, yes, I now see how BIG a choice I made in Spring 1901, this was of course driven by my alliance with Chris, so to help him I needed to own Devil's. Yikes, this really WAS a huge thing..... and I had no idea.
Jim-Bob
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Mine and Jim's success as allies for most of the game speaks for itself,
so I won't add anything to his account. However, working with Jim gave
me an early glimpse at the difference in play styles that would lead to
our falling out.
Jim's first instinct when dealing with larger
powers seemed to be to find an accommodation with them. As he notes in
his EoG, Jim was not so much annoyed with Brian for invading the
Underground as he was proud of being able to negotiate a shared lease of
the space. And in the endgame when Mike pushed Jim eastward across the
southern continent while gobbling his centers from behind, I suspect Jim
felt proud to be leading the vanguard to stop the solo.
I, on the other hand, spent the whole game picking fights with the larger powers, even though that's a really ineffective path to becoming a larger power oneself. First I took on the Hobbits, then the Pirates, and then the Rogues. I never had a chance of defeating any of them, as they were better players who had gotten off to better starts than I did, but I enjoyed fighting for a noble but losing cause more than I would have playing lackey to any of them.
The difference in our styles of play did not prove a problem between me and Jim until Brian became the sole solo threat and it was time to work with Mike. Which I refused to do.
I had what I think are good reasons for refusing. The first was that I knew refraining from attacking Mike wouldn't mean he would stop attacking me. And he never did.
The second one was that Mike had an annoying habit of labeling my efforts at
self-defense as "attacking him." During the game I described Mike as "a player who punches you in the face and then yells at you for bruising his hand."
The third was that I knew even if Mike eased up in his relentless push against my borders, as soon as Brian's solo effort was stopped he would come crashing down on them again. Mike admitted this to me himself: "As for my future intentions, you were pretty spot on -- IF Brian had
turned back quickly, I would have continued on for the 2-way Draw we had
been working towards."
Jim says in his EoG that we have a difference in opinion over which of us stabbed the other, but were he to look over the results, he wouldn't be able to point out one instance where I took a center from him or even tried to. However, I did try to take centers from Mike and to Jim, that was the same as taking one from Jim and, even more unforgivably, from the effort to stop the solo.
And from the vantage of Jim's style of play, he is not wrong. However, after reading about the sour taste Mike left in just about everyone's mouth, including Jim's, by the end of the game, I am happy that I made a different choice in the endgame than Jim.
Chris
P.S. That choice did not involve throwing the game to Brian. I offered to throw the game to him, in hopes that it would lead Brian to support me into Mike's centers. But Brian instead insisted that I instead support him into Mike's centers, which I always found a
reason not to do. So if Jim found my efforts to throw the game to Brian poorly and intermittently carried out, it's because they were never legitimate efforts, a fact obvious to a neutral observer. Mike Sims after I was eliminated expressed surprise that Brian didn't find some way to exploit me after Jim stabbed me. It turns out Brian didn't need me for the solo. He had Mike.
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Norton" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>, "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>,
"baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:45 AM
I'm so busy and so far behind, I think I'm going to take a stab at a "shortie" and see how it flies. I have played many
of the large variants, especially those designed by David Cohen. The two things I've learned are:
1) Gotta play like a shark, if you don't keep moving, you die. If you stagnate in center growth you fall behind and become a target. 2) You gotta have at least ONE really true blue ally who you try to hide from others.
For me that was Chris and the Elves. How many of you realized how PERFECTLY correlated we were all up to the time where we weren't? And that was when only Joe, Mike, Brian and me were the other ones left....
And more than that, I let Chris drive the bus on almost all of our back and forth that we did. If you're going to work in complete concert, you must avoid conflict at all costs. I did. I think that was successful, I made it to the endgame surprisingly easily, I thought. Various people like the Leprechauns who ended up faring poorly I hardly talked to, I only followed Chris' lead on when to support them, when to ignore them, and when to attack them. Chris really has the clearer view of how all that went. This especially included interaction with Joe and the Hobbits and Mike and the Rogues. I really only picked up direct negotiations with Mike and Joe after Chris (in my view) went off the deep end at the end. I suspect Chris and I have diametrically opposed views of the end, I think Chris stabbed me and Chris thinks I stabbed him. Interesting, I wonder if Brian manipulated
that?? He might have.
Anyway, BUT, I did take the lead in the negotiations with Brian and the Knights. My view was "keep everyone but one player out of the Underworld" and try to work with just one person who I permitted down there. The early agreements with Brian on that score were highly successful for both of us. Brian helped me keep the Underground clear of anyone else, which I could not have accomplished on my own, and it gave me play to seek to control the three southern exits from the Underground.
This worked fine up TO the point where Brian and I had to come to blows, this was also where it seemed Chris was toadying to Brian (throwing him the win, but badly and intermittently). The first thing that happened is that Brian had people popping up in the underground in weird ways, and TO BE HONEST I wasn't paying attention. I didn't see ANY of the wraparound boxes. This went on for about three game years where I didn't see the tactics right, so I was outmaneuvered. I'm not sure when Brian figured out that I didn't understand it. And Mike Sims NEEDS to make these little boxes that just aren't big enough on the screen bigger in the next map version. But I didn't get it. I need to emphasize, MY FAULT. But when I finally figured it out, I decided I had one main goal, survive and put the hit back on Brian. Stop him from winning, and ultimately I wanted to beat him all the way back. First
Chris got in the way of that, we took him out. Then Mike stabbed me just as we were about to succeed and make that progress, so I tried to hit Mike back even though I knew my cause was lost. Brian would win.
Mike will tell you that he thought Joe and I would give up and vote a two way for Brian and Mike. If he had probed me about that in any way whatsoever he would have found two things:
1) I like two ways, I have more two way DRAWS than solos, but every one of them is an ON THE BOARD two way, because 2) You NEVER vote a two way DRAW, you don't call them TWO WAY WINS (ever!!!!), and you make them play out on the board, and that is FUN, exciting, and makes for great endgame nailbiting Diplomacy.
I thought we might end up there IF the attack on Brian failed, but I first wanted to take Mt Nimro back and Mike needed to be WAY closer than Brian. In my view, Mike's stab was way too soon for that to happen. I actually might have cooperated in trying to be eliminated in a timely way to achieve that. But not until I achieved my goal, I would have asked to have Mt. Nimro be the last center taken, I think that would have been fitting. But instead, Brian played brilliantly and deserved his solo. Mike Sims was great, he should take my map comments as constructive criticism, I do LIKE the map and the way it works, even more so now that I understand how the Underground works. And we all need GIANT screens to play it, mine on my four computers, none of them are large enough!!!!
BUT, I will be interested in Mike's justification of when he did the stab, I think there was way too much "real life intrusion" into how all that played out. I had two giant grant proposals due (that thankfully are now out), Joe was moving house, and Mike was taking a long vacation. These things should not have influenced the game outcome, but I think they did.
Cheers, I really enjoyed playing with you all and apologies for not having time for the longer version of this...Jim
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IVMike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>;
Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net"
<tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...
Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the
fight. I remember being frustrated that
the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.
So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.
So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!
mvp
|
| Eleves Reply to Dwarves EoG (dc394) mjn82 Oct 03, 03:15 pm |
It was, but I also made little effort to Dip with you prior to your move in 1901. I convinced myself that you would find yourself in a defensive move quickly and wouldn't be a factor down south for a while.
From: Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>; Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>;
"welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Eleves Reply to Dwarves EoG
Ah, that makes EVERYTHING clear. Yes, Chris is correct. As I noted, when Chris was my ally, I basically backed off to whatever he wanted to do until he was not willing to stop the solo. Ultimately, I shoot that arrow at BOTH Chris and Mike. I would have done what needed to be done to stop Brian before that.
Thanks, Chris, I really did enjoy our deceptions, I don't think anyone got how closely we were working together to the end.
And to Mike, yes, I now see how BIG a choice I made in Spring 1901, this was of course driven by my alliance with Chris, so to help him I needed to own Devil's. Yikes, this really WAS a huge thing..... and I had no idea.
Jim-Bob
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Mine and Jim's success as allies for most of the game speaks for itself, so I won't add anything to his account. However, working with Jim gave me an early glimpse at the difference in play styles that would lead to our falling out.
Jim's first instinct when dealing with larger powers seemed to be to find an accommodation with them. As he notes in his EoG, Jim was not so much annoyed with Brian for invading the Underground as he was proud of being able to negotiate a shared lease of the space. And in the endgame when Mike pushed Jim eastward across the southern continent while gobbling his centers from behind, I suspect Jim felt proud to be leading the vanguard to stop the solo.
I, on the other hand, spent the whole game picking fights with the larger powers, even though that's a really ineffective path to becoming a larger power oneself. First I took on the Hobbits,
then the Pirates, and then the Rogues. I never had a chance of defeating any of them, as they were better players who had gotten off to better starts than I did, but I enjoyed fighting for a noble but losing cause more than I would have playing lackey to any of them.
The difference in our styles of play did not prove a problem between me and Jim until Brian became the sole solo threat and it was time to work with Mike. Which I refused to do.
I had what I think are good reasons for refusing. The first was that I knew refraining from attacking Mike wouldn't mean he would stop attacking me. And he never did.
The second one was that Mike had an annoying habit of labeling my efforts at self-defense as "attacking him." During the game I described Mike as "a player who punches you in the face and then yells at you for bruising his hand."
The third was that I knew even if Mike eased up in his relentless push against my borders, as
soon as Brian's solo effort was stopped he would come crashing down on them again. Mike admitted this to me himself: "As for my future intentions, you were pretty spot on -- IF Brian had turned back quickly, I would have continued on for the 2-way Draw we had been working towards."
Jim says in his EoG that we have a difference in opinion over which of us stabbed the other, but were he to look over the results, he wouldn't be able to point out one instance where I took a center from him or even tried to. However, I did try to take centers from Mike and to Jim, that was the same as taking one from Jim and, even more unforgivably, from the effort to stop the solo.
And from the vantage of Jim's style of play, he is not wrong. However, after reading about the sour taste Mike left in just about everyone's mouth, including Jim's, by the end of the game, I am happy that I made a different choice in the endgame than Jim.
Chris
P.S.
That choice did not involve throwing the game to Brian. I offered to throw the game to him, in hopes that it would lead Brian to support me into Mike's centers. But Brian instead insisted that I instead support him into Mike's centers, which I always found a reason not to do. So if Jim found my efforts to throw the game to Brian poorly and intermittently carried out, it's because they were never legitimate efforts, a fact obvious to a neutral observer. Mike Sims after I was eliminated expressed surprise that Brian didn't find some way to exploit me after Jim stabbed me. It turns out Brian didn't need me for the solo. He had Mike.
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Norton" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>, "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>, "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:45 AM
I'm so busy and so far behind, I think I'm going to take a stab at a "shortie" and see how it flies.
I have played many of the large variants, especially those designed by David Cohen. The two things I've learned are:
1) Gotta play like a shark, if you don't keep moving, you die. If you stagnate in center growth you fall behind and become a target.
2) You gotta have at least ONE really true blue ally who you try to hide from others.
For me that was Chris and the Elves. How many of you realized how PERFECTLY correlated we were all up to the time where we weren't? And that was when only Joe, Mike, Brian and me were the other ones left....
And more than that, I let Chris drive the bus on almost all of our back and forth that we did. If you're going to work in complete concert, you must avoid conflict at all costs. I did. I think that was successful, I made it to the endgame surprisingly easily, I thought. Various people like the Leprechauns who ended up faring poorly I hardly talked to, I only followed Chris' lead on when to support them, when to ignore them, and when to attack them. Chris really has the clearer view of how all that went. This especially included interaction with Joe and the Hobbits and Mike and the Rogues. I really only picked up direct negotiations with Mike and Joe after Chris (in my view) went off the deep end at the end. I suspect Chris and I have diametrically opposed views of the end, I think Chris stabbed me and Chris thinks I stabbed him. Interesting, I wonder if Brian manipulated that?? He might
have.
Anyway, BUT, I did take the lead in the negotiations with Brian and the Knights. My view was "keep everyone but one player out of the Underworld" and try to work with just one person who I permitted down there. The early agreements with Brian on that score were highly successful for both of us. Brian helped me keep the Underground clear of anyone else, which I could not have accomplished on my own, and it gave me play to seek to control the three southern exits from the Underground.
This worked fine up TO the point where Brian and I had to come to blows, this was also where it seemed Chris was toadying to Brian (throwing him the win, but badly and intermittently). The first thing that happened is that Brian had people popping up in the underground in weird ways, and TO BE HONEST I wasn't paying attention. I didn't see ANY of the wraparound boxes. This went on for about three game years where I didn't see the tactics right, so I was outmaneuvered. I'm not sure when Brian figured out that I didn't understand it. And Mike Sims NEEDS to make these little boxes that just aren't big enough on the screen bigger in the next map version. But I didn't get it. I need to emphasize, MY FAULT. But when I finally figured it out, I decided I had one main goal, survive and put the hit back on Brian. Stop him from winning, and ultimately I wanted to beat him all the way back. First
Chris got in the way of that, we took him out. Then Mike stabbed me just as we were about to succeed and make that progress, so I tried to hit Mike back even though I knew my cause was lost. Brian would win.
Mike will tell you that he thought Joe and I would give up and vote a two way for Brian and Mike. If he had probed me about that in any way whatsoever he would have found two things:
1) I like two ways, I have more two way DRAWS than solos, but every one of them is an ON THE BOARD two way, because
2) You NEVER vote a two way DRAW, you don't call them TWO WAY WINS (ever!!!!), and you make them play out on the board, and that is FUN, exciting, and makes for great endgame nailbiting Diplomacy.
I thought we might end up there IF the attack on Brian failed, but I first wanted to take Mt Nimro back and Mike needed to be WAY closer than Brian. In my view, Mike's stab was way too soon for that to happen. I actually might have cooperated in trying to be eliminated in a timely way to achieve that. But not until I achieved my goal, I would have asked to have Mt. Nimro be the last center taken, I think that would have been fitting. But instead, Brian played brilliantly and deserved his solo. Mike Sims was great, he should take my map comments as constructive criticism, I do LIKE the map and the way it works, even more so now that I understand how the Underground works. And we all need GIANT screens to play it, mine on my four computers, none of them are large enough!!!!
BUT, I will be interested in Mike's justification of when he did the stab, I think there was way too much "real life intrusion" into how all that played out. I had two giant grant proposals due (that thankfully are now out), Joe was moving house, and Mike was taking a long vacation. These things should not have influenced the game outcome, but I think they did.
Cheers, I really enjoyed playing with you all and apologies for not having time for the longer version of this...
Jim
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Michael Norton <http://mc/compose?to=mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IV
Mike
From: Michael Penner <http://mc/compose?to=mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <http://mc/compose?to=clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <http://mc/compose?to=jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=mrh(at)panix.com" <http://mc/compose?to=mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <http://mc/compose?to=mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <http://mc/compose?to=diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "http://mc/compose?to=baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <http://mc/compose?to=chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <http://mc/compose?to=welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <http://mc/compose?to=kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <http://mc/compose?to=jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <http://mc/compose?to=wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <http://mc/compose?to=mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <http://mc/compose?to=Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "http://mc/compose?to=kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <http://mc/compose?to=kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=tiga124(at)aol.com" <http://mc/compose?to=tiga124(at)aol.com>; "http://mc/compose?to=tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <http://mc/compose?to=tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <http://mc/compose?to=dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the fight. I remember being frustrated that the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch
their differences to help in this matter.So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!mvp
|
| Elves Reply to Ogre EoG - FuzzyLogic (Oct 03, 2012, 12:30 pm) |
There is a lot of good talk here on north vs south, and I think it's working out largely how I envisioned... You've got your two witches... the Knights and Ogres... if they get hit early on, the continent remains volatile and the other civs jockey for power. If either is able to stabilize, then the contient becomes heavily influenced by the K or O and whomever else they're working with. The Dwarves are the lynchpin that determines how all this shakes out, and their spring 01 moves are extremely powerful... for if the Dwarves open toward Ice, then they set the stage for an early Knight hit, but if they open toward Dev then an Ogre hit is coming. That's what happened here... the Dwarves snagged Dev in 01, leaving the Ogres buildless while the Knights grew with a safe back side against the Barbarians and Centaurs. In dc406, we see an entirely different picture. The Dwarves opened with a convoy to Myth, heading toward neither Ice nor Dev. Now 10 years in, KOD are the dominant powers in the game. It all depends on who is playing the positions and what alliances form early.
Some interesting stats... in 5 games complete, 5 civs have managed to never be part of the final draw... Barbarians, Centaurs, Elves, Gnomes, and Leprechauns. Tho both Gnomes and Elves had a good run in this game, up till their fatal stabs.
Jim nailed the key initiatives. You gotta play like a shark -- If you aren't in an alliance plotting to kill someone off, then you are probly the one slated for sacrifice. And you want to keep your alliances obscured from the rest of the board. However bucking this thoughtline, is the fact that Hoffman as the Rogues opened up conceding a 0-build start in 01, yet was one of the final 2. That is quite remarkable to be a powerhouse by mid-game after having gotten off to the slowest of starts. It certainly challenges the standard that you need a good start followed by consistent momentum in order to do well.
From: Michael Norton [mailto:mjn82(at)yahoo.com]
Sent: Wed 10/3/2012 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
Having played in the North as the archer and the south as the Ogre I agree with Chris. Much more room to work with and more well defined boundaries up north than in the treacherous realms of the south. But then, that's what makes the game interesting.
Mike
From: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
To: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>; Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:41 AM
Subject: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
It would indeed have been fun to ally with Mike at the beginning of the game. He's brilliant and chummy.
One thing kept me from doing so: Three River Lake. I identified TRL--which borders two of my home centers, as well as a home center of the Ogres and the Nomads--as the key to my survival. Control it, and I would be a tough nut to crack. Allow a rival fleet to patrol it, and I would be bent over that power's knee.
So the first thing I did in the game was negotiate a DMZ of TRL with the Ogres and Nomads. And the third thing I did, after gaining my first build in Caer, is break it.
Mike, to his credit, worked hard for the remainder of his game to work something out with me and then, failing that, to make me pay for my treachery.
Which to me illustrates the one striking feature of this game. In the southern continent, every foot of conquest was bought with buckets of blood and then more than likely lost the next season. But in the north, the borders of the Knights and Rogues seemed to flow down the map like water.
I suspect it had to do with the cramped quarters in the south. The Ogres and Nomads are landlocked, as essentially was I, trapped behind the long channel flowing between the southern and central continents. There was simply no room to get a running start.
The season that the Knights began their solo run by stabbing every neighbor in sight for five centers, I remember thinking, "There's no way the bunch of us could leave that many centers undefended in the south. We'd have to put three-quarters of our units out to sea first."
Did anyone else note that discrepancy in expansion opportunities? Or was it more a product of the players than the geography?
Chris
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "Jim Burgess" <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>, "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:01 AM
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IV
Mike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the fight. I remember being frustrated that the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!mvp
[Reply] |
| Elves Reply to Ogre EoG - mjn82 (Oct 03, 2012, 11:10 am) |
Having played in the North as the archer and the south as the Ogre I agree with Chris. Much more room to work with and more well defined boundaries up north than in the treacherous realms of the south. But then, that's what makes the game interesting. Mike
From: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
To: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>; Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com"
<dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:41 AM
Subject: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
It would indeed have been fun to ally with Mike at the beginning of the game. He's brilliant and chummy.
One thing kept me from doing so: Three River Lake. I identified TRL--which borders two of my home centers, as well as a home center of the Ogres and the Nomads--as the key to my survival. Control it, and I would be a tough nut to crack. Allow a rival fleet to patrol it, and I would be bent over that power's knee.
So the first thing I did in the game was negotiate a DMZ of TRL with the Ogres and Nomads. And the third thing I did, after gaining my first build in Caer, is break it.
Mike, to his credit, worked hard for the remainder of his game to work something out with me and then, failing that, to make me pay for my treachery.
Which to me illustrates
the one striking feature of this game. In the southern continent, every foot of
conquest was bought with buckets of blood and then more than likely lost the next season. But in the north, the borders of the Knights and Rogues seemed to flow down the map like water.
I suspect it had to do with the cramped quarters in the south. The Ogres and Nomads are landlocked, as essentially was I, trapped behind the long channel flowing between the southern and central continents. There was simply no room to get a running start.
The season that the Knights began their solo run by stabbing every neighbor in sight for five centers, I remember thinking, "There's no way the bunch of us could leave that many centers undefended in the south. We'd have to put three-quarters of our units out to sea first."
Did anyone else note that discrepancy in expansion opportunities? Or was it more a product of the players than the geography?
Chris
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "Jim Burgess" <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>, "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com"
<wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com"
<sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:01 AM
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was
loyal, the
Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven Currently occupied filming Shrek IVMike From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>;
Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net"
<tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the
fight. I remember being frustrated that
the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!mvp [Reply] |
| Haven victory (An OgresTale) - Jim-Bob (Oct 03, 2012, 10:45 am) |
I'm so busy and so far behind, I think I'm going to take a stab at a "shortie" and see how it flies. I have played many of the large variants, especially those designed by David Cohen. The two things I've learned are:
1) Gotta play like a shark, if you don't keep moving, you die. If you stagnate in center growth you fall behind and become a target. 2) You gotta have at least ONE really true blue ally who you try to hide from others.
For me that was Chris and the Elves. How many of you realized how PERFECTLY correlated we were all up to the time where we weren't? And that was when only Joe, Mike, Brian and me were the other ones left....
And more than that, I let Chris drive the bus on almost all of our back and forth that we did. If you're going to work in complete concert, you must avoid conflict at all costs. I did. I think that was successful, I made it to the endgame surprisingly easily, I thought. Various people like the Leprechauns who ended up faring poorly I hardly talked to, I only followed Chris' lead on when to support them, when to ignore them, and when to attack them. Chris really has the clearer view of how all that went. This especially included interaction with Joe and the Hobbits and Mike and the Rogues. I really only picked up direct negotiations with Mike and Joe after Chris (in my view) went off the deep end at the end. I suspect Chris and I have diametrically opposed views of the end, I think Chris stabbed me and Chris thinks I stabbed him. Interesting, I wonder if Brian manipulated that?? He might have.
Anyway, BUT, I did take the lead in the negotiations with Brian and the Knights. My view was "keep everyone but one player out of the Underworld" and try to work with just one person who I permitted down there. The early agreements with Brian on that score were highly successful for both of us. Brian helped me keep the Underground clear of anyone else, which I could not have accomplished on my own, and it gave me play to seek to control the three southern exits from the Underground.
This worked fine up TO the point where Brian and I had to come to blows, this was also where it seemed Chris was toadying to Brian (throwing him the win, but badly and intermittently). The first thing that happened is that Brian had people popping up in the underground in weird ways, and TO BE HONEST I wasn't paying attention. I didn't see ANY of the wraparound boxes. This went on for about three game years where I didn't see the tactics right, so I was outmaneuvered. I'm not sure when Brian figured out that I didn't understand it. And Mike Sims NEEDS to make these little boxes that just aren't big enough on the screen bigger in the next map version. But I didn't get it. I need to emphasize, MY FAULT. But when I finally figured it out, I decided I had one main goal, survive and put the hit back on Brian. Stop him from winning, and ultimately I wanted to beat him all the way back. First Chris got in the way of that, we took him out. Then Mike stabbed me just as we were about to succeed and make that progress, so I tried to hit Mike back even though I knew my cause was lost. Brian would win.
Mike will tell you that he thought Joe and I would give up and vote a two way for Brian and Mike. If he had probed me about that in any way whatsoever he would have found two things:
1) I like two ways, I have more two way DRAWS than solos, but every one of them is an ON THE BOARD two way, because 2) You NEVER vote a two way DRAW, you don't call them TWO WAY WINS (ever!!!!), and you make them play out on the board, and that is FUN, exciting, and makes for great endgame nailbiting Diplomacy.
I thought we might end up there IF the attack on Brian failed, but I first wanted to take Mt Nimro back and Mike needed to be WAY closer than Brian. In my view, Mike's stab was way too soon for that to happen. I actually might have cooperated in trying to be eliminated in a timely way to achieve that. But not until I achieved my goal, I would have asked to have Mt. Nimro be the last center taken, I think that would have been fitting. But instead, Brian played brilliantly and deserved his solo. Mike Sims was great, he should take my map comments as constructive criticism, I do LIKE the map and the way it works, even more so now that I understand how the Underground works. And we all need GIANT screens to play it, mine on my four computers, none of them are large enough!!!!
BUT, I will be interested in Mike's justification of when he did the stab, I think there was way too much "real life intrusion" into how all that played out. I had two giant grant proposals due (that thankfully are now out), Joe was moving house, and Mike was taking a long vacation. These things should not have influenced the game outcome, but I think they did.
Cheers, I really enjoyed playing with you all and apologies for not having time for the longer version of this...Jim
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IVMike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>;
Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net"
<tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...
Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the
fight. I remember being frustrated that
the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.
So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.
So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!
mvp
[Reply] |
| Elves Reply to Ogre EoG - The_Blurbist (Oct 03, 2012, 10:41 am) |
It would indeed have been fun to ally with Mike at the beginning of the game. He's brilliant and chummy.
One thing kept me from doing so: Three River Lake. I identified TRL--which borders two of my home centers, as well as a home center of the Ogres and the Nomads--as the key to my survival. Control it, and I would be a tough nut to crack. Allow a rival fleet to patrol it, and I would be bent over that power's knee.
So the first thing I did in the game was negotiate a DMZ of TRL with the Ogres and Nomads. And the third thing I did, after gaining my first build in Caer, is break it.
Mike, to his credit, worked hard for the remainder of his game to work something out with me and then, failing that, to make me pay for my treachery.
Which to me illustrates the one striking feature of this game. In the southern continent, every foot of
conquest was bought with buckets of blood and then more than likely lost the next season. But in the north, the borders of the Knights and Rogues seemed to flow down the map like water.
I suspect it had to do with the cramped quarters in the south. The Ogres and Nomads are landlocked, as essentially was I, trapped behind the long channel flowing between the southern and central continents. There was simply no room to get a running start.
The season that the Knights began their solo run by stabbing every neighbor in sight for five centers, I remember thinking, "There's no way the bunch of us could leave that many centers undefended in the south. We'd have to put three-quarters of our units out to sea first."
Did anyone else note that discrepancy in expansion opportunities? Or was it more a product of the players than the geography?
Chris
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "Jim Burgess" <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>, "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com"
<sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:01 AM
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the
Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven Currently occupied filming Shrek IVMike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>;
Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net"
<tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...
Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the
fight. I remember being frustrated that
the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.
So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.
So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!
mvp
[Reply] |
| Elves Reply to Ogre EoG (dc394) mjn82 Oct 03, 11:10 am |
Having played in the North as the archer and the south as the Ogre I agree with Chris. Much more room to work with and more well defined boundaries up north than in the treacherous realms of the south. But then, that's what makes the game interesting. Mike
From: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
To: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>; Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com"
<dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:41 AM
Subject: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
It would indeed have been fun to ally with Mike at the beginning of the game. He's brilliant and chummy.
One thing kept me from doing so: Three River Lake. I identified TRL--which borders two of my home centers, as well as a home center of the Ogres and the Nomads--as the key to my survival. Control it, and I would be a tough nut to crack. Allow a rival fleet to patrol it, and I would be bent over that power's knee.
So the first thing I did in the game was negotiate a DMZ of TRL with the Ogres and Nomads. And the third thing I did, after gaining my first build in Caer, is break it.
Mike, to his credit, worked hard for the remainder of his game to work something out with me and then, failing that, to make me pay for my treachery.
Which to me illustrates
the one striking feature of this game. In the southern continent, every foot of
conquest was bought with buckets of blood and then more than likely lost the next season. But in the north, the borders of the Knights and Rogues seemed to flow down the map like water.
I suspect it had to do with the cramped quarters in the south. The Ogres and Nomads are landlocked, as essentially was I, trapped behind the long channel flowing between the southern and central continents. There was simply no room to get a running start.
The season that the Knights began their solo run by stabbing every neighbor in sight for five centers, I remember thinking, "There's no way the bunch of us could leave that many centers undefended in the south. We'd have to put three-quarters of our units out to sea first."
Did anyone else note that discrepancy in expansion opportunities? Or was it more a product of the players than the geography?
Chris
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "Jim Burgess" <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>, "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com"
<wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com"
<sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:01 AM
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was
loyal, the
Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven Currently occupied filming Shrek IVMike From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>;
Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net"
<tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the
fight. I remember being frustrated that
the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!mvp |
| Elves Reply to Ogre EoG (dc394) FuzzyLogic Oct 03, 12:30 pm |
There is a lot of good talk here on north vs south, and I think it's working out largely how I envisioned... You've got your two witches... the Knights and Ogres... if they get hit early on, the continent remains volatile and the other civs jockey for power. If either is able to stabilize, then the contient becomes heavily influenced by the K or O and whomever else they're working with. The Dwarves are the lynchpin that determines how all this shakes out, and their spring 01 moves are extremely powerful... for if the Dwarves open toward Ice, then they set the stage for an early Knight hit, but if they open toward Dev then an Ogre hit is coming. That's what happened here... the Dwarves snagged Dev in 01, leaving the Ogres buildless while the Knights grew with a safe back side against the Barbarians and Centaurs. In dc406, we see an entirely different picture. The Dwarves opened with a convoy to Myth, heading toward neither Ice nor Dev. Now 10 years in, KOD are the dominant powers in the game. It all depends on who is playing the positions and what alliances form early.
Some interesting stats... in 5 games complete, 5 civs have managed to never be part of the final draw... Barbarians, Centaurs, Elves, Gnomes, and Leprechauns. Tho both Gnomes and Elves had a good run in this game, up till their fatal stabs.
Jim nailed the key initiatives. You gotta play like a shark -- If you aren't in an alliance plotting to kill someone off, then you are probly the one slated for sacrifice. And you want to keep your alliances obscured from the rest of the board. However bucking this thoughtline, is the fact that Hoffman as the Rogues opened up conceding a 0-build start in 01, yet was one of the final 2. That is quite remarkable to be a powerhouse by mid-game after having gotten off to the slowest of starts. It certainly challenges the standard that you need a good start followed by consistent momentum in order to do well.
From: Michael Norton [mailto:mjn82(at)yahoo.com]
Sent: Wed 10/3/2012 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
Having played in the North as the archer and the south as the Ogre I agree with Chris. Much more room to work with and more well defined boundaries up north than in the treacherous realms of the south. But then, that's what makes the game interesting.
Mike
From: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
To: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>; Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:41 AM
Subject: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
It would indeed have been fun to ally with Mike at the beginning of the game. He's brilliant and chummy.
One thing kept me from doing so: Three River Lake. I identified TRL--which borders two of my home centers, as well as a home center of the Ogres and the Nomads--as the key to my survival. Control it, and I would be a tough nut to crack. Allow a rival fleet to patrol it, and I would be bent over that power's knee.
So the first thing I did in the game was negotiate a DMZ of TRL with the Ogres and Nomads. And the third thing I did, after gaining my first build in Caer, is break it.
Mike, to his credit, worked hard for the remainder of his game to work something out with me and then, failing that, to make me pay for my treachery.
Which to me illustrates the one striking feature of this game. In the southern continent, every foot of conquest was bought with buckets of blood and then more than likely lost the next season. But in the north, the borders of the Knights and Rogues seemed to flow down the map like water.
I suspect it had to do with the cramped quarters in the south. The Ogres and Nomads are landlocked, as essentially was I, trapped behind the long channel flowing between the southern and central continents. There was simply no room to get a running start.
The season that the Knights began their solo run by stabbing every neighbor in sight for five centers, I remember thinking, "There's no way the bunch of us could leave that many centers undefended in the south. We'd have to put three-quarters of our units out to sea first."
Did anyone else note that discrepancy in expansion opportunities? Or was it more a product of the players than the geography?
Chris
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "Jim Burgess" <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>, "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:01 AM
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IV
Mike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the fight. I remember being frustrated that the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!mvp
|
| Elves Reply to Ogre EoG (dc394) offdisc Oct 08, 03:36 pm |
Us Rogues are sneaky --- we actually got 7 builds in Year 1, reported 0 to the IRS, and slowly pulled from the nest egg when needed.
---------
"Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com> wrote:
There is a lot of good talk here on north vs south, and I think it's working out largely how I envisioned... You've got your two witches... the Knights and Ogres... if they get hit early on, the continent remains volatile and the other civs jockey for power. If either is able to stabilize, then the contient becomes heavily influenced by the K or O and whomever else they're working with. The Dwarves are the lynchpin that determines how all this shakes out, and their spring 01 moves are extremely powerful... for if the Dwarves open toward Ice, then they set the stage for an early Knight hit, but if they open toward Dev then an Ogre hit is coming. That's what happened here... the Dwarves snagged Dev in 01, leaving the Ogres buildless while the Knights grew with a safe back side against the Barbarians and Centaurs. In dc406, we see an entirely different picture. The Dwarves opened with a convoy to Myth, heading toward neither Ice nor Dev. Now 10 years in, KOD are the dominant powers in the game. It all depends on who is playing the positions and what alliances form early.
Some interesting stats... in 5 games complete, 5 civs have managed to never be part of the final draw... Barbarians, Centaurs, Elves, Gnomes, and Leprechauns. Tho both Gnomes and Elves had a good run in this game, up till their fatal stabs.
Jim nailed the key initiatives. You gotta play like a shark -- If you aren't in an alliance plotting to kill someone off, then you are probly the one slated for sacrifice. And you want to keep your alliances obscured from the rest of the board. However bucking this thoughtline, is the fact that Hoffman as the Rogues opened up conceding a 0-build start in 01, yet was one of the final 2. That is quite remarkable to be a powerhouse by mid-game after having gotten off to the slowest of starts. It certainly challenges the standard that you need a good start followed by consistent momentum in order to do well.
From: Michael Norton [mailto:mjn82(at)yahoo.com]
Sent: Wed 10/3/2012 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
Having played in the North as the archer and the south as the Ogre I agree with Chris. Much more room to work with and more well defined boundaries up north than in the treacherous realms of the south. But then, that's what makes the game interesting.
Mike
From: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
To: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>; Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:41 AM
Subject: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
It would indeed have been fun to ally with Mike at the beginning of the game. He's brilliant and chummy.
One thing kept me from doing so: Three River Lake. I identified TRL--which borders two of my home centers, as well as a home center of the Ogres and the Nomads--as the key to my survival. Control it, and I would be a tough nut to crack. Allow a rival fleet to patrol it, and I would be bent over that power's knee.
So the first thing I did in the game was negotiate a DMZ of TRL with the Ogres and Nomads. And the third thing I did, after gaining my first build in Caer, is break it.
Mike, to his credit, worked hard for the remainder of his game to work something out with me and then, failing that, to make me pay for my treachery.
Which to me illustrates the one striking feature of this game. In the southern continent, every foot of conquest was bought with buckets of blood and then more than likely lost the next season. But in the north, the borders of the Knights and Rogues seemed to flow down the map like water.
I suspect it had to do with the cramped quarters in the south. The Ogres and Nomads are landlocked, as essentially was I, trapped behind the long channel flowing between the southern and central continents. There was simply no room to get a running start.
The season that the Knights began their solo run by stabbing every neighbor in sight for five centers, I remember thinking, "There's no way the bunch of us could leave that many centers undefended in the south. We'd have to put three-quarters of our units out to sea first."
Did anyone else note that discrepancy in expansion opportunities? Or was it more a product of the players than the geography?
Chris
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "Jim Burgess" <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>, "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:01 AM
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IV
Mike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the fight. I remember being frustrated that the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!mvp
|
| Elves Reply to Ogre EoG (dc394) offdisc Oct 08, 04:35 pm |
After playing, what... 4?... games of Haven, I was surprised how the Kinghts and Ogres continued to be dominant powers, especially after the new Underworld links of Ice Reach and Devils Canyon. However, after playing this game, I am thinking that the Poles, being so embedded near the Knights and Ogres homes, doesn't really balance the powers -- in fact giving them that much access to the Underworld might have made them even MORE powerful. Considering that 3 of their 4 neighbors are nation sthat have never made the final, they're starting positions aren't overly threatened and so those powers have the ability to run for the poles.
Now, if the poles connected via some sort of "hole to China", THAT would definitely change the game dynamics, forcing both to worry about each other AND the rest of the world.
I also still think that the Rogues, Undead, and Magicians are at a disadvantage with access to the Underworld only via invasion of some other territory first. Maybe a solution would be to link Spirit Pond and Dargaard Keep. (I vote to keep the name Dargaard Keep, as a fan of the Gold Box AD&D computer games). This would allow Rogues, Magicians, and Undead to make a run for the Underworld just like everyone else. You'd probably have to disconnect from Nimro, maybe sliding Tunnels up to Nimro?
Mike
---------
"Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
"Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com> wrote:
There is a lot of good talk here on north vs south, and I think it's working out largely how I envisioned... You've got your two witches... the Knights and Ogres... if they get hit early on, the continent remains volatile and the other civs jockey for power. If either is able to stabilize, then the contient becomes heavily influenced by the K or O and whomever else they're working with. The Dwarves are the lynchpin that determines how all this shakes out, and their spring 01 moves are extremely powerful... for if the Dwarves open toward Ice, then they set the stage for an early Knight hit, but if they open toward Dev then an Ogre hit is coming. That's what happened here... the Dwarves snagged Dev in 01, leaving the Ogres buildless while the Knights grew with a safe back side against the Barbarians and Centaurs. In dc406, we see an entirely different picture. The Dwarves opened with a convoy to Myth, heading toward neither Ice nor Dev. Now 10 years in, KOD are the dominant powers in the game. It all depends on who is playing the positions and what alliances form early.
Some interesting stats... in 5 games complete, 5 civs have managed to never be part of the final draw... Barbarians, Centaurs, Elves, Gnomes, and Leprechauns. Tho both Gnomes and Elves had a good run in this game, up till their fatal stabs.
Jim nailed the key initiatives. You gotta play like a shark -- If you aren't in an alliance plotting to kill someone off, then you are probly the one slated for sacrifice. And you want to keep your alliances obscured from the rest of the board. However bucking this thoughtline, is the fact that Hoffman as the Rogues opened up conceding a 0-build start in 01, yet was one of the final 2. That is quite remarkable to be a powerhouse by mid-game after having gotten off to the slowest of starts. It certainly challenges the standard that you need a good start followed by consistent momentum in order to do well.
From: Michael Norton [mailto:mjn82(at)yahoo.com]
Sent: Wed 10/3/2012 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
Having played in the North as the archer and the south as the Ogre I agree with Chris. Much more room to work with and more well defined boundaries up north than in the treacherous realms of the south. But then, that's what makes the game interesting.
Mike
From: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>
To: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>; Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:41 AM
Subject: Elves Reply to Ogre EoG
It would indeed have been fun to ally with Mike at the beginning of the game. He's brilliant and chummy.
One thing kept me from doing so: Three River Lake. I identified TRL--which borders two of my home centers, as well as a home center of the Ogres and the Nomads--as the key to my survival. Control it, and I would be a tough nut to crack. Allow a rival fleet to patrol it, and I would be bent over that power's knee.
So the first thing I did in the game was negotiate a DMZ of TRL with the Ogres and Nomads. And the third thing I did, after gaining my first build in Caer, is break it.
Mike, to his credit, worked hard for the remainder of his game to work something out with me and then, failing that, to make me pay for my treachery.
Which to me illustrates the one striking feature of this game. In the southern continent, every foot of conquest was bought with buckets of blood and then more than likely lost the next season. But in the north, the borders of the Knights and Rogues seemed to flow down the map like water.
I suspect it had to do with the cramped quarters in the south. The Ogres and Nomads are landlocked, as essentially was I, trapped behind the long channel flowing between the southern and central continents. There was simply no room to get a running start.
The season that the Knights began their solo run by stabbing every neighbor in sight for five centers, I remember thinking, "There's no way the bunch of us could leave that many centers undefended in the south. We'd have to put three-quarters of our units out to sea first."
Did anyone else note that discrepancy in expansion opportunities? Or was it more a product of the players than the geography?
Chris
--- On Wed, 10/3/12, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Haven victory (An OgresTale)
To: "Michael Penner" <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>, "Christopher Lockheardt" <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>, "Jim Burgess" <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>, "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: "Michael Sims" <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>, "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>, "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>, "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>, "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>, "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>, "Garry Bledsoe" <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>, "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>, "Jerome Payne" <jerome777(at)ymail.com>, "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>, "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>, "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>, "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>, "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>, "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>, "dc394" <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 11:01 AM
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IV
Mike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>; Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net" <tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the fight. I remember being frustrated that the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!mvp
|
| Haven victory (An OgresTale) - mjn82 (Oct 03, 2012, 10:01 am) |
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven Currently occupied filming Shrek IVMike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>;
Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net"
<tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...
Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the
fight. I remember being frustrated that
the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.
So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.
So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!
mvp
[Reply] |
| Haven victory (An OgresTale) (dc394) Jim-Bob Oct 03, 10:45 am |
I'm so busy and so far behind, I think I'm going to take a stab at a "shortie" and see how it flies. I have played many of the large variants, especially those designed by David Cohen. The two things I've learned are:
1) Gotta play like a shark, if you don't keep moving, you die. If you stagnate in center growth you fall behind and become a target. 2) You gotta have at least ONE really true blue ally who you try to hide from others.
For me that was Chris and the Elves. How many of you realized how PERFECTLY correlated we were all up to the time where we weren't? And that was when only Joe, Mike, Brian and me were the other ones left....
And more than that, I let Chris drive the bus on almost all of our back and forth that we did. If you're going to work in complete concert, you must avoid conflict at all costs. I did. I think that was successful, I made it to the endgame surprisingly easily, I thought. Various people like the Leprechauns who ended up faring poorly I hardly talked to, I only followed Chris' lead on when to support them, when to ignore them, and when to attack them. Chris really has the clearer view of how all that went. This especially included interaction with Joe and the Hobbits and Mike and the Rogues. I really only picked up direct negotiations with Mike and Joe after Chris (in my view) went off the deep end at the end. I suspect Chris and I have diametrically opposed views of the end, I think Chris stabbed me and Chris thinks I stabbed him. Interesting, I wonder if Brian manipulated that?? He might have.
Anyway, BUT, I did take the lead in the negotiations with Brian and the Knights. My view was "keep everyone but one player out of the Underworld" and try to work with just one person who I permitted down there. The early agreements with Brian on that score were highly successful for both of us. Brian helped me keep the Underground clear of anyone else, which I could not have accomplished on my own, and it gave me play to seek to control the three southern exits from the Underground.
This worked fine up TO the point where Brian and I had to come to blows, this was also where it seemed Chris was toadying to Brian (throwing him the win, but badly and intermittently). The first thing that happened is that Brian had people popping up in the underground in weird ways, and TO BE HONEST I wasn't paying attention. I didn't see ANY of the wraparound boxes. This went on for about three game years where I didn't see the tactics right, so I was outmaneuvered. I'm not sure when Brian figured out that I didn't understand it. And Mike Sims NEEDS to make these little boxes that just aren't big enough on the screen bigger in the next map version. But I didn't get it. I need to emphasize, MY FAULT. But when I finally figured it out, I decided I had one main goal, survive and put the hit back on Brian. Stop him from winning, and ultimately I wanted to beat him all the way back. First Chris got in the way of that, we took him out. Then Mike stabbed me just as we were about to succeed and make that progress, so I tried to hit Mike back even though I knew my cause was lost. Brian would win.
Mike will tell you that he thought Joe and I would give up and vote a two way for Brian and Mike. If he had probed me about that in any way whatsoever he would have found two things:
1) I like two ways, I have more two way DRAWS than solos, but every one of them is an ON THE BOARD two way, because 2) You NEVER vote a two way DRAW, you don't call them TWO WAY WINS (ever!!!!), and you make them play out on the board, and that is FUN, exciting, and makes for great endgame nailbiting Diplomacy.
I thought we might end up there IF the attack on Brian failed, but I first wanted to take Mt Nimro back and Mike needed to be WAY closer than Brian. In my view, Mike's stab was way too soon for that to happen. I actually might have cooperated in trying to be eliminated in a timely way to achieve that. But not until I achieved my goal, I would have asked to have Mt. Nimro be the last center taken, I think that would have been fitting. But instead, Brian played brilliantly and deserved his solo. Mike Sims was great, he should take my map comments as constructive criticism, I do LIKE the map and the way it works, even more so now that I understand how the Underground works. And we all need GIANT screens to play it, mine on my four computers, none of them are large enough!!!!
BUT, I will be interested in Mike's justification of when he did the stab, I think there was way too much "real life intrusion" into how all that played out. I had two giant grant proposals due (that thankfully are now out), Joe was moving house, and Mike was taking a long vacation. These things should not have influenced the game outcome, but I think they did.
Cheers, I really enjoyed playing with you all and apologies for not having time for the longer version of this...Jim
On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Michael Norton <mjn82(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought it would be fun to ally with Lockheardt and thought Elves and Ogres would be a good start. Alas, Chris had other plans. I also expected the Dwarves to be tied up protecting his homeland as the last time I played so many wanted a piece of the underworld. Wrong on both counts and wrong on not cultivating the one friend who was loyal, the Leprechauns. Hence the early exit. Well 2 tries at Haven, and one draw. not bad. we will see again soon. hope to see some of you in the next Haven
Currently occupied filming Shrek IVMike
From: Michael Penner <mvpenner(at)yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt(at)yahoo.com>;
Jim Burgess <jfburgess(at)gmail.com>; "mrh(at)panix.com" <mrh(at)panix.com>
Cc: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com>; "diplomacy(at)diffell.net" <diplomacy(at)diffell.net>; "baz.dip(at)gmail.com" <baz.dip(at)gmail.com>; "dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com" <dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com>; "chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com" <chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com>; "welsh_stroud(at)msn.com" <welsh_stroud(at)msn.com>; Garry Bledsoe <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com>; "dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com" <dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com>; Jerome Payne <jerome777(at)ymail.com>; "wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com" <wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com>; "mjn82(at)yahoo.com" <mjn82(at)yahoo.com>; "sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com" <sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com>; "Spinozas(at)gmx.net" <Spinozas(at)gmx.net>; "kingkovas(at)gmail.com" <kingkovas(at)gmail.com>; "tiga124(at)aol.com" <tiga124(at)aol.com>; "tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net"
<tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net>; dc394 <dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Haven victory (A Faerie's Take)
I have not been paying any attention to this game since being eliminated, but I'll say I'm not surprised at the result. Let's see what I remember...
Right off the hop, I attempted to work with Hoffman because I've always been frustrated as his enemy and have rarely had the option of being his friend, so I thought since we were nearly neighbours, this would be a good chance for that. As such, I started off in the direction of the Archers. Shortly after beating him down, a call came from the Barbarians that the Knights were treacherous and needed to be stopped. I looked at the situation and agreed. I appealed to the Nomad, the Dwarf, and the Rogue to join me in knocking him down. As it turned out, it was only the Barbarian and I who took up the
fight. I remember being frustrated that
the Nomad and the Rogue couldn't patch their differences to help in this matter.
So, the Knight slowly did away with me, pushing me out into the central sea. As he expanded, and came in contact with more people, I kept entreating people to avoid allying with him as he seemed to have a history of turning on allies, but one by one, they joined him instead of opposing him. The only semblance of help I got was from the Dwarf, who helped me survive much longer than I should have, until I ran into an expanding Hobbit who couldn't see the use of keeping me around.
So I chose my retreat and sacrificed myself at the feet of a dragon, trying desperately to convince the world that the Knights were to be feared. So that's why I say I'm not surprised. Well played, sir!
mvp
|
| DC406: Spring 12 Results! - waschlappen (Oct 03, 2012, 3:11 am) |
Well, our magic doesn't stop at the GMs doorstep...
Von meinem iPad gesendet
Am 02.10.2012 um 15:40 schrieb Jeff Hall <hall.jeff(at)gmail.com>:
so just a random observation / question?
What is it about the map making process that makes the Magicians territory colored differently in the two maps sent? I must have a fundamental misunderstanding about how the maps get made...
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 11:44 PM, garry b <kielmarch(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
I am sure the knights are just passing through. I say vote yes before it's too late!
On Oct 1, 2012, at 11:27 PM, Mike Hoffman <mrh(at)panix.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
> My Jets got spanked, my Fantasy teams all lost, I need something good to happen.
> The moves on time, Yea! I hope they're all correct.
>
> We see the Nomads removed from the board this turn. However, as in Monty Python, He's Not Dead Yet! If the Knights are feeling extra merciful, they can move out of Spiral Castle and Nomads can rebuild their unit.
>
> Then again, if the world was THAT lucky and nice, at least one of the Draw Proposals would have passed. Instead, all voted down.
>
> New Draw Proposal: Nomad Solo!!!
>
> Adjustments, Deadline tomorrow Tuesday 10/2 at 5 PM MST
> ===============================================
> Gnomes: A Hundred Acre Wood -> Dan, Ele, Dry, or OTB
> Ogres: F Newa River -> Ele, Aca, or OTB
> Undead: F EAST SEA OF SHADOWS -> Tim, Ist, or OTB
>
> Nomads: A Spiral Castle (*Disbanded*)
>
> Spring 12 Results
> ================
> Dwarves:
> F Llyr - Loxley
> F Mount Nimro - EAST MIRIANIC OCEAN
> A Diamond Mines - Knurremurre
> F Oz - Vinyaya
> F Ella - CHOCOLATE RIVER
> F The Neverwood - Travers Town
> F Ashan Supports F TILVA STRAIT - Grimheim
> A Sorrows End - Pygmy
> F Never Never Land - HIGH SEAS
> F Duloc Supports A Neverpeak Mtn - Critter Country
> A Myth Drannor - Cliffs of Insanity
> F The Julianthes - WEST MIRIANIC OCEAN
> A Spirit Pond - Carpantha
> A Cave of Ordeals - Troldhaugen (*Fails*)
> F Lost Woods(sc) - Dargaard Keep
> A Walk of Clouds Supports F Ashan
> A Land of Sweets - Gurgi (*Fails*)
> A Daisy Meadows Supports F Grimheim - Ranaar
> F Cliffs of Insanity - RUGGED COAST
> A Tymwyvenne - Cave of Ordeals (*Fails*)
> A Knurremurre - Dragons Teeth Mtns
> A Ancient Necropolis Supports A Venatori Umbrarum - Neverpeak Mtn
> F TILVA STRAIT - Grimheim
> F WEST MIRIANIC OCEAN - TILVA STRAIT
> F RUGGED COAST - HORNED BAY
>
> Faeries:
> A Kender - Corona
> F POOL OF RADIANCE - Dargaard Keep (*Fails*)
>
> Gnomes:
> A Hundred Acre Wood Hold (*Dislodged*)
> A Avalon Hold
>
> Knights:
> A Khemri Supports A Gwynir - Hundred Acre Wood
> A Wing Hove Supports A Ice Reach
> F Arborlon - CRYSTAL LAKE
> A Grimpen Ward - Shady Vale
> F The Silver city - BEAVERSDAM
> A Telmar - Orboros (*Fails*)
> F Troldhaugen Supports F TROG BOG - THON THALAS (*Cut*)
> F Orboros - TROG BOG (*Fails*)
> A Starkadh Supports A Gwynir - Hundred Acre Wood
> A Ice Reach Hold
> A Kingdom of Hearts Supports A Dragons Teeth Mtns - Spiral Castle
> F Gurgi Hold
> F Daniloth - Newa River
> A Gwynir - Hundred Acre Wood
> A River Saeren - Fionavar
> A Dragons Teeth Mtns - Spiral Castle
> F CELESTIAL DELTA Supports F The Silver city - BEAVERSDAM
> F SUNLESS SEA Convoys A Telmar - Orboros
> F TROG BOG - THON THALAS (*Fails*)
>
> Leprechauns:
> A Uuno - Heresh (*Fails*)
>
> Magicians:
> A Tarsis - Ergoth
> F Ergoth - EAST SEA OF SHADOWS
> A Cyriss - Lost Woods
> F WEST SEA OF SHADOWS Supports F Ergoth - EAST SEA OF SHADOWS
>
> Nomads:
> A Spiral Castle Supports A Knurremurre - Dragons Teeth Mtns (*Disbanded*)
>
> Ogres:
> F Gelfling - ROARING RAPIDS
> F Newa River - Daniloth (*Dislodged*)
> F Mordor - GULF OF LUHN
> A Lindon - Rohan
> F Knockshegowna - THE MAW
> A Fitzgibbon - Fafhrd (*Fails*)
> F Fantastica - Maze of Regrets
> F Horborixen - Lankhmar
> F Lankhmar - THREE RIVER LAKE
> F Pans Labyrinth - MERMAIDS LAGOON
> F Grimheim - Ranaar
> A Fjord Hold
> A Niflheim Supports A Sorrows End - Pygmy
> A Everglot - Lost Woods (*Fails*)
> F Ansalon - RIVER STYX
> A Tuatha - Merrow
> A Fafhrd - Uuno (*Fails*)
> F Whoville - Heresh
> A Devils Canyon Supports F Whoville - Heresh
> A Krikkit - Nowwhat
> F Enchanted Isles - SEA OF FALLEN STARS
> A Neverpeak Mtn - Critter Country (*Fails*)
> A Moominvalley Supports A Everglot - Lost Woods
> A Great Steppes - Sinking Shore
> F Hoarluk - Lubrick
> A Allerleirauh - Powry
> A Rivendell - Pans Labyrinth
> A Venatori Umbrarum - Neverpeak Mtn (*Bounce*)
> F THON THALAS Supports A Cave of Ordeals - Troldhaugen (*Cut*)
> F WAY THE HECK - Ithin'Carthia(wc)
> F BIKINI BOTTOM - WAY THE HECK
> F THUNDERHEAD - SAVAGE SEA
>
> Pirates:
> A Prydain - Strawberry Fields
> A Slightly Gulch Supports A Critter Country - Neverpeak Mtn
> A Critter Country - Neverpeak Mtn (*Bounce*)
> F GRIEF REEF Supports F Daniloth - Newa River
> F HIGH SEAS - Abby Normal
>
> Undead:
> A Skellington - Everglot (*Fails*)
> A Palmaris Supports F Lost Woods(sc) - Dargaard Keep
> F EAST SEA OF SHADOWS Convoys A Everglot - Lost Woods (*Dislodged*)
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> ---------
> "Sit Long, Talk Much, Laugh Often" -- anon
> "Shared Pain is lessened, Shared Joy is increased" --- Spider Robinson
>
> <S12_preR.dpw>
> <S12_preR.gif>
> <S12_M.gif>
--
It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt
-Abraham Lincoln
The problem with Internet quotes is that you can never be certain of their accuracy
-Abraham Lincoln[Reply] |
| Haven victory Gnomes comments - ConradW (Oct 03, 2012, 12:03 am) |
Congrats to the Knights. The Gnomes probably had quite a bit to do with
the final result, but not as slavishly as might have been perceived. The
original decision was easy to get rid of the Centaurs and secure what I
thought of as my rear guard.
My memory is bit vague on it , but
things went awry when I attacked the Trolls believing the Rogues were
going to do so simultaneously. However the Rogues craftily delayed doing
so waiting for the two of us to fully engage. Thus he picked up a lot
of the Troll territory. This resulted in cutting off the last route of
expansion I might have had for the Pirates to my south were too strong,
although I attempted to deal with it. So surrounded by the Rogues,
Knight and Pirates it was only a matter of time. I couldn't get the
Knights interested in going at Rogues, indeed the Knight announced he
would enforce a peace between the two of us and attack the one who
broke it.
So the question comes why didn't I try to stop the Knights
early on? I think another player has already answered this. From my
perspective there was no credible proposal as to how to accomplish this.
It always seemed to me that it came down to you, Gnomes, stab him and
the rest of us will be right behind you.
So congrats to the Knights
again and my advice is don't trust a Rogue, who is really really good at
convincing you he is a great guy who just wants to help.
Subject: Haven victory
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 07:34:05 -0500
From: mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.com
To: diplomacy(at)diffell.net
CC: mvpenner(at)yahoo.com; baz.dip(at)gmail.com; dipcorp.player(at)gmail.com; chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; welsh_stroud(at)msn.com; kielmarch(at)hotmail.com; dan.i.sinensky(at)gmail.com; jerome777(at)ymail.com; jfburgess(at)gmail.com; wealllovekatamari(at)yahoo.com; mjn82(at)yahoo.com; mrh(at)panix.com; sandiegosmith(at)hotmail.com; Spinozas(at)gmx.net; kingkovas(at)gmail.com; clockheardt(at)yahoo.com; tiga124(at)aol.com; tomahaha(at)frontiernet.net; dc394(at)diplomaticcorp.com; clockheardt(at)yahoo.com
Re: dc394 s19 results!
This is it! Game over! Congrats Brian...
Catapulting to 55 suppy centers with only 52 needed to win, the Knights take this one to the record books. Longest game (20 years) and first solo victory... So. What do you have to say for yourselves? EOG's! From everyone! Even those little guys who got killed early on...
Some interesting stats at the end...
Supply Center Chart: http://www.diplomaticcorp.com/country_stats.php?type=game&game_id=dc394
New Trend Chart for Haven results: http://www.diplomaticcorp.com/country_stats.php?map=Haven&chart=Column3D
NEXT: Nothing! No orders due! Take a breather. But the next Haven game is already open to join... http://www.diplomaticcorp.com/game_page.php?game_id=re004
Do y'all even wanna see the results? It's pretty much Knights all over the place while everyone else takes a bath. Not a pretty picture... but just for the visual, we'll attach a final map and some moves...
Some RETREATS that don't matter...
Dwarves:
A Valley of Lost Honor - Marshes of Morva
Rogues:
F The Neverwood - PIRATE SHOALS
F Pans Labyrinth - The High Way
A The Silver city - Moominvalley
F Sorrows End - THON THALAS
F NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN - RUGGED COAST
ORDERS
Dwarves:
A Lindon Supports A Undermountain - Nowwhat
A Lubrick - Knockshegowna
A Whoville Hold
A Valley of Lost Honor - Garthim (*Dislodged*)
F Powry - Lubrick
A Ogrun - Nehwon (*Fails*)
A Marshes of Morva - Gelfling
A Thra - Silvanesti
Hobbits:
F Mordor - Candlekeep
A Rohan - Two Towers
A Waterdeep - City of Splendors
A Krikkit Supports A The Wilderland - Nowwhat
A The Wilderland - Nowwhat (*Fails*)
F Yuirwood Supports F Mordor - Candlekeep (*Fails*)
F Rivendell - SEA OF FALLEN STARS
F Far Far Away - Never Never Land (*Fails*)
F GULF OF LUHN - Baldurs Gate
F SEA OF FALLEN STARS - Enchanted Isles
Knights:
A Grissel - Orboros
A Mount Nimro Hold
A Vinyaya - Acme Acres
F Ella - NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN
A Newa River Supports A Troldhaugen - Cave of Ordeals
A Riku Hold
A Grimheim - Ashan (*Bounce*)
A Troldhaugen - Cave of Ordeals
A Orboros - The Silver city
A Devils Canyon - Traal
A Candlekeep - Waterdeep
A Travers Town Supports A Maze of Regrets - The Neverwood
F Slightly Gulch Hold
F Dimmsdale Hold
A Cave of Ordeals - Sorrows End
F Abby Normal Supports A Cave of Ordeals - Sorrows End
A Hoarluk - Fafhrd
F Kara-Tur Supports A Candlekeep - Waterdeep
A Parce Pass Supports A Groves of Academe - Pans Labyrinth
A Camelittle Hold
A Maze of Regrets - The Neverwood
A Endor - Cliffs of Insanity
A Groves of Academe - Pans Labyrinth
A Daisy Meadows Supports F Dimmsdale
A Cliffs of Insanity - Myth Drannor
A Khaz Modan - Temple of Doom
A Carpantha Supports A Mount Nimro
A Twisted Tunnels - Devils Canyon
A Snow Witch Supports A Twisted Tunnels - Devils Canyon
A Undermountain - Nowwhat
A Venatori Umbrarum Supports A Undermountain - Nowwhat
F SUNLESS SEA Supports A Grissel - Orboros
F BEAVERSDAM Supports A Orboros - The Silver city
F TILVA STRAIT Supports A Grimheim - Ashan (*Cut*)
F TROG BOG - Pygmy (*Fails*)
F GRIEF REEF Convoys A Groves of Academe - Pans Labyrinth
F MERMAIDS LAGOON Convoys A Groves of Academe - Pans Labyrinth
F EAST MIRIANIC OCEAN Supports F RUGGED COAST - Gumdrop Isle
F CHOCOLATE RIVER Supports F Ella - NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN
F RUGGED COAST - Gumdrop Isle
F RIFT CANYON Supports A Cliffs of Insanity - Myth Drannor
F RESTLESS WATERS Supports F PIRATE SHOALS - Land Ho
F PIRATE SHOALS - Land Ho
Rogues:
F Garthim Supports A Cormyr - Valley of Lost Honor
A Nehwon Supports A Heresh - Devils Canyon (*Cut*)
F The Neverwood Hold (*Dislodged*)
F Pans Labyrinth - Rivendell (*Dislodged*)
A The Silver city Supports F POOL OF RADIANCE - Ashan (*Dislodged*)
F Ashan - Grimheim (*Fails*)
F Sorrows End Supports F TROG BOG - THON THALAS (*Dislodged*)
A Kahvi Hold
F Land Ho - GULF OF LUHN
F Never Never Land Supports F HIGH SEAS - WAY THE HECK (*Cut*)
F Myth Drannor - Port Ghaast (*Disbanded*)
F Great Glacier - RIVER OF THE DAWN (*Fails*)
A Zhentil Keep Hold
F The Old Gristmill - Dhunia
A Pygmy Supports A The Silver city (*Cut*)
A Walk of Clouds Supports F NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN - Dimmsdale
A Palmaris - Timberlands
A Sinking Shore - Prekkendorran Hts
A Heresh - Devils Canyon (*Fails*)
A Cormyr - Valley of Lost Honor
F Port Ghaast - Gumdrop Isle (*Fails*)
A Pwyll - Myth Drannor (*Fails*)
F POOL OF RADIANCE - Ashan (*Bounce*)
F HIGH SEAS - WAY THE HECK
F EAST SEA OF SHADOWS - WEST SEA OF SHADOWS
F THUNDERHEAD - Merrow
F SAVAGE SEA - THUNDERHEAD
F ZEBOIMS DEEP - The Old Gristmill
F CHURNING REACH Convoys A Pwyll - Myth Drannor
F WEST MIRIANIC OCEAN - TILVA STRAIT (*Fails*)
F NORTH MIRIANIC OCEAN - Dimmsdale (*Dislodged*)
F RAZORS EDGE Supports F RESTLESS WATERS - Baldurs Gate (*Void*)
F RIVER OF THE DAWN - Waterdeep (*Fails*)
[Reply] |
