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Post:< 18472 >
Subject:< For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question >
Topic:Community >
Category:General >
Author:Blueraider0
Posted:Nov 13, 2010 at 12:12 am
Viewed:1377 times

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Aahhhh, dang it I apparently didn't actually post my response. Crud, and it was so brilliant and funny and intellectually stunning! Well, here's take 2. And if it sucks, just know there is a better version somewhere in the ether. Just out of reach...

So initially I thought Adam's comeback was pretty good. It seems to destroy my puzzle pretty quickly. But looking at the wording, it does nothing of the sort. If anything, it further complicates the matter. If the unit COULD move to a province via convoy (as described before), then the support should be relevant. But if the unit is actually convoyed, then the support is invalid per Adam's reference. We can see how this would really screw things up, perhaps forcing Nth to convoy a foreign unit against itself in Lon to prevent that unit from giving support against Lon. And then maybe that player outsmarts the Nth player and actually orders TO Lon, sabotaging the saboteur.

Now obviously what I am saying is wrong. There is no way NAf can support Yor to Lon just because there is a fleet in MAO and ECH. I bring it up to say the rules are very unclear in many instances. As for the original rules reference from Sims, if the rule was "A unit can give support to or against a province if the provinces border AND if the unit (army or fleet (on a certain coast if applicable)) in the province of origin could move to the destination this turn." This clarifies the whole situation. But that is not as the rule is written, and I think we should discuss that.

On that, the cited rule really only forbids something like Nth C Bel S Pic to Lon. Which is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the word 'could.' Bel COULD move to Lon via Nth, and therefore Bel could support an attack against Lon regardless of what Nth does. Or perhaps a GM might insist Bel COULDN'T actually move because the fleet did something else besides convoy. In that case what if Nth C Bel to Lon? Then Bel can support because it COULD have moved. That's a different situation than Nth C Bel S Pic to Lon. I feel we'd be wrongly applying a specific rule to a larger situation. It's like deducing someone that doesn't like grape juice doesn't like sugar because sugar is in grape juice. It's a pretty huge leap.....

This message is in reply to post 18464:

Generally, I agree with poobaloo's interpretations.

Maslow and I did go back to the rulebook. Maslow pointed out the rule stating "An Army can be ordered to move into an adjacent inland or coastal province" and also "An Army can move across water provinces from one coastal province to another via one or more Fleets." Therefore, by definition, a unit can not be ordered to move from Belgium to Paris (*if* one assumes that the above rules are 100% complete... which is a matter of interpretation).

I countered with the rules stating when a support can be given. The emphasis is on whether a unit is ordered to move or not. And this left me with the same question that Garry asked: Can a unit ordered to move *invalidly* receive support to hold? Is it trying to move? Or does its invalidity make it a holding unit? In fact, I referred to Garry's House Rules in the context of the discussion Smile

In Maslow's interpretation, since invalid orders are, by definition, not allowed, then any invalidly ordered unit reverts to: "Not giving a unit an order is interpreted as ordering it to hold."

This is, by the way, how I interpret invalid orders. Still, what has been missing is an overt statement in the rules that an invalid movement order becomes an order to hold.

Mike Sims cited the following rule: "Any vague or invalid orders are ignored." Unfortunately... that rule appears in a section entitled "Writing Build and Disbandments". It clearly refers specifically to adjustments. There is not a complementary rule for movement orders.

In short... I see no clear correct answer.

Myself, I think that the general practice of "Invalid orders become orders to hold" takes precedence, and I would adjudicate as though all such units were ordered from the outset to hold.

Note: this is *not* how RP works. Or the judges. They will treat an invalid movement order as an attempt to move.

Like others, I agree that the really tricky scenario was A Bel-NAf. The rules say:

"If Fleets occupy adjacent water provinces, an Army can be convoyed through all these water provinces on one turn, landing in a coastal province adjacent to the final Fleet in the chain."

I would argue that, since there is not an unbroken chain of fleets running from Belgium to NAf, the army's order is invalid and should be treated as A Bel Holds.

A final thought: I have never encountered any of these scenarios in a real game. (And I hope that I never do).

Adam

There are 16 Messages in this Thread:


For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (AceRimmer) Nov 10, 10:06 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 10, 09:39 pm

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 10, 09:54 pm

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (s2000chops) Nov 11, 11:25 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (garry.bledsoe) Nov 11, 03:29 pm

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Blueraider0) Nov 12, 02:07 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (AceRimmer) Nov 12, 10:14 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (AceRimmer) Nov 12, 10:23 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Blueraider0) Nov 13, 12:12 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 15, 09:49 am

Reply notification (AceRimmer) Nov 15, 10:56 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 15, 11:20 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (Blueraider0) Nov 19, 01:49 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 19, 08:48 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (AceRimmer) Nov 19, 11:17 am

For GMs: Invalid order - Support Question (FuzzyLogic) Nov 19, 12:05 pm

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