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Diplomaticcorp Discussion Forum:  dc354

(Haven World)


Post:< 20741 >
Subject:< dc354 game end - draw! >
Topic:< dc354 >
Category:< Active Games >
Author:offdisc
Posted:May 23, 2011 at 12:51 pm
Viewed:1285 times

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On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Jeff Hall <hall.jeff(at)gmail.com> wrote:


I also enjoyed the game but the after action comments are leaving me a bit concerned. I would suggest to those of you that participated in the initial "alliance" that you strongly reconsider whether that's the best thing for the game. It introduces questions of fairness and it strikes me that it's only one step better then me inviting my wife and brother to join the next game. Such metagaming is somewhat inevitable but to do it on such a broad basis right from the start is, to me at least, anathema to the game of Diplomacy. Factoring in past performance when evaluating a potential ally is one thing (hopefully the Archers have a better understanding of how I play so that we can avoid these problems next time... and despite Gary's stab, I felt like he was largely upfront with me and, had I committed to a Gnome assault like I should have he might not have stabbed me when he did). But beyond those considerations, such broad pacts (in my opinion) have a distinct negative impact on the game. It detracts from the fun of others (it sure feels like, after reading those after game emails, that I wasn't invited to the "cool kids" table and I therefore never had a chance) and it creates situations unlikely to lead to solos (which ought to be most people's goal when they sit down at the table).

/rant off


At least I now recognize that the "fix was in" so to speak on my initial position. Gary was in an enviable position and frankly was well positioned to fight the hobbits for a potential solo.





Being the 'ringleader' of the M7 / Veterans Alliance, I just wanted to clear up my thinking so as not to be cast anyone in a shadow, or relegate them to eating lunch on the steps behind the building. (Jeff, I *know* what it's like NOT to be the "cool kids" Smile Many years ago, but it's still there)


I totally agree that Meta-gaming detracts from the individual game. On the other hand, do we also not carry our historical prejudices against us? We learn each others' play styles and they always sit in the back of our minds.

That being said, I have played in every Haven game, either as an original or as a replacement. I have been eliminated a couple times, survived a couple, and been on the winning side once. I *think* I understand the vagaries of the board after this experience. However, I can safely say that in the M7, I have only played closely with 4 of the members. I have played closely with 3 of the 'uninvited'. My point being that, in making up my call for alliance, I did not focus on my personal experiences (thus true Meta-Gaming), but on the historical experience of the players themselves.


What I was after was a personal 'game-test': Could experience with the board layout, with the poisitonal advantages and disadvantages of each power, be leveraged into a fast victory? A quick elimination of the other powers followed by a fight-to-the-death amongst the experienced? The 'fight-to-the-death was the proposed 'next step' once M7 were the remaining competitors.


Seeing the results, what do you think? Once word of the "Vets" went public, the opposing force was considerable! The final outcome shows that many of the M7 survived, but only 2 were part of the overall Draw win. Without Max' defection, would that outcome be different? Maybe, maybe not. One certain result: I may be part of an alliance like this again, but, obviously, my diplomacy skills weren't strong enough to hold it together and I won't be creating one in the future.


I had always fully expected the M7 to break down once only 1 or 2 others remained -- first to strike usually gains the competitive advantage. I was surprised how quickly Max jumped ship, but I see his reasoning and he absolutely made the correct decision! He read his opponents well and capitalized on his advantage. A veteran move? Definitely!


So, Jeff, I am sorry that you now feel that "uninvited", but I disagree that the "fix was in". I was 100% truthful with you in our negotiations. I was actively attempting to steer both Garry and Warren towards the Faeries instead of you --- mostly so that when the M7 started to break down, I could call on you to help me take either (or both) of them out! Smile Put the Barbs into the final battles and you carry considerable positional advantage! A T/R/B alliance can do a lot of damage against G/K.

Alas, both Warren and Garry were not to be persuaded, and the Faeries assisted in your eventual demise. I had no influence over them, and Garry and Nathan were slow to attack and draw them away from you.

Bad Luck -- but certainly not a "fix".


Mike

This message is in reply to post 20697:

Surrender or die!


 


You can make demands like that when 4 powers control 2/3 of the centers on the board.  63 to 39 is pretty overwhelming.  The real question that lingers is what might have happened if the game played on for a bit.  Can one do better in the game?  I dunno - nobody has ever managed to solo this variant, and it's already a pretty small draw.  So congrats to our top 4!  Max, Garry, Charles, and Baz.  The other 8 do squeak out survivals, some only half a year away from elimination.


 


So now that everyone has all agreed to world peace, what do you take away from the game?  Has it made you a better person?  Has it altered your love for Ogres and Trolls?  Perhaps your belief in Leprechauns and Hobbits?  And why oh why do such seemingly happy peaceful creatures fight like that?  Why is it that Wizards consistently outperform Magicians, even tho both have access to the same books of spells?  What about those Nomads and Dwarves that start scattered - they didn't so so well this round.  All this, and more, I'm sure, to follow in many EGS's.  Smile


 


I would like to make a few map tweaks and then run another game in a little bit.  So any ideas you have be sure to bring up!


 


Also we're in need of the next Standard GM... so if you want to run a game let me know!


Enjoy,


-mike


 


 

There are 19 Messages in this Thread:


dc354 game end - draw! (FuzzyLogic) May 18, 04:08 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (ndeily) May 18, 04:15 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (offdisc) May 18, 04:36 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (alwayshunted) May 18, 04:36 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (balthazar) May 18, 07:51 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (Githraine) May 19, 07:18 am

dc354 game end - draw! (Spinoza) May 19, 08:03 am

dc354 game end - draw! (pieandmash) May 19, 09:26 am

dc354 game end - draw! (laxrulz777) May 19, 11:58 am

dc354 game end - draw! (mgsmuhammad) May 19, 01:23 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (offdisc) May 23, 12:51 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (laxrulz777) May 23, 02:39 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (FuzzyLogic) May 23, 03:27 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (laxrulz777) May 23, 04:33 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (ndeily) May 23, 04:39 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (laxrulz777) May 23, 05:08 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (alwayshunted) May 23, 10:21 pm

dc354 game end - draw! (pieandmash) May 24, 02:47 am

dc354 game end - draw! (FuzzyLogic) May 24, 07:35 am

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Diplomacy games may contain lying, stabbing, or deliberately deceiving communications that may not be suitable for and may pose a hazard to young children, gullible adults, and small farm animals.

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