On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Jeff Hall <hall.jeff(at)gmail.com> wrote:


I also enjoyed the game but the after action comments are leaving me a bit concerned. I would suggest to those of you that participated in the initial "alliance" that you strongly reconsider whether that's the best thing for the game. It introduces questions of fairness and it strikes me that it's only one step better then me inviting my wife and brother to join the next game. Such metagaming is somewhat inevitable but to do it on such a broad basis right from the start is, to me at least, anathema to the game of Diplomacy. Factoring in past performance when evaluating a potential ally is one thing (hopefully the Archers have a better understanding of how I play so that we can avoid these problems next time... and despite Gary's stab, I felt like he was largely upfront with me and, had I committed to a Gnome assault like I should have he might not have stabbed me when he did). But beyond those considerations, such broad pacts (in my opinion) have a distinct negative impact on the game. It detracts from the fun of others (it sure feels like, after reading those after game emails, that I wasn't invited to the "cool kids" table and I therefore never had a chance) and it creates situations unlikely to lead to solos (which ought to be most people's goal when they sit down at the table).

/rant off


At least I now recognize that the "fix was in" so to speak on my initial position. Gary was in an enviable position and frankly was well positioned to fight the hobbits for a potential solo.





Being the 'ringleader' of the M7 / Veterans Alliance, I just wanted to clear up my thinking so as not to be cast anyone in a shadow, or relegate them to eating lunch on the steps behind the building. (Jeff, I *know* what it's like NOT to be the "cool kids" Many years ago, but it's still there)


I totally agree that Meta-gaming detracts from the individual game. On the other hand, do we also not carry our historical prejudices against us? We learn each others' play styles and they always sit in the back of our minds.

That being said, I have played in every Haven game, either as an original or as a replacement. I have been eliminated a couple times, survived a couple, and been on the winning side once. I *think* I understand the vagaries of the board after this experience. However, I can safely say that in the M7, I have only played closely with 4 of the members. I have played closely with 3 of the 'uninvited'. My point being that, in making up my call for alliance, I did not focus on my personal experiences (thus true Meta-Gaming), but on the historical experience of the players themselves.


What I was after was a personal 'game-test': Could experience with the board layout, with the poisitonal advantages and disadvantages of each power, be leveraged into a fast victory? A quick elimination of the other powers followed by a fight-to-the-death amongst the experienced? The 'fight-to-the-death was the proposed 'next step' once M7 were the remaining competitors.


Seeing the results, what do you think? Once word of the "Vets" went public, the opposing force was considerable! The final outcome shows that many of the M7 survived, but only 2 were part of the overall Draw win. Without Max' defection, would that outcome be different? Maybe, maybe not. One certain result: I may be part of an alliance like this again, but, obviously, my diplomacy skills weren't strong enough to hold it together and I won't be creating one in the future.


I had always fully expected the M7 to break down once only 1 or 2 others remained -- first to strike usually gains the competitive advantage. I was surprised how quickly Max jumped ship, but I see his reasoning and he absolutely made the correct decision! He read his opponents well and capitalized on his advantage. A veteran move? Definitely!


So, Jeff, I am sorry that you now feel that "uninvited", but I disagree that the "fix was in". I was 100% truthful with you in our negotiations. I was actively attempting to steer both Garry and Warren towards the Faeries instead of you --- mostly so that when the M7 started to break down, I could call on you to help me take either (or both) of them out! Put the Barbs into the final battles and you carry considerable positional advantage! A T/R/B alliance can do a lot of damage against G/K.

Alas, both Warren and Garry were not to be persuaded, and the Faeries assisted in your eventual demise. I had no influence over them, and Garry and Nathan were slow to attack and draw them away from you.

Bad Luck -- but certainly not a "fix".


Mike