| NNIGTFML tomorrow! - TheWhiteWolf (Sep 15, 2009, 8:51 am) |
What? I'm not? Aww, crap.
Mike, please let the Venezuelan people know I'm not really El Presidente, that I've simply been an imposter this past year. A fool parading in the streets with a crown, cape and scepter.
I'll turn in my keys to the presidential palace promptly (wow, try saying that five times fast!) and vacate the premises. Packrat, thank you for rescuing these poor souls from following the wrong leader!
Posing Presidente Lobo
--- On Tue, 9/15/09, Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Ah - Andy - you're not in *this* game.
[Reply] |
| NNIGTFML tomorrow! - packrat (Sep 15, 2009, 5:58 am) |
Ah - Andy - you're not in *this* game.
From: The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com>
To: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>; Jack McHugh <jwmchughjr(at)gmail.com>; Benjamin Hester <screwtape777(at)gmail.com>; Jason K <githraine(at)yahoo.com>; jchdipaccount(at)gmail.com; Gregory_Olson(at)brown.edu; drew3739o(at)yahoo.com; alley_cat_1990(at)hotmail.com; dc273 <dc273(at)diplomaticcorp.com>; Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 1:50:44 AM
Subject: Re: NNIGTFML tomorrow!
Feel free to not take your builds, folks. I'd be happy to put them to good use in your stead. But only if it would be a burden to take them yourselves, you know.
;o)
Wolf
I'm a Firefly fan and proud! Read my fiction:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1369632/
--- On Mon, 9/14/09, Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeh, yeh, that would *really* suck.
From: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>
Still waiting on a few lucky llamalian builds for tomorrow!
You earned them, would sure suck to not put them on the board…
[Reply] |
| ACD-231, DC-239, DC-272 Results Tomorrow - TheWhiteWolf (Sep 15, 2009, 12:54 am) |
Everyone,
I'm sorry this is going to such a diverse audience. I trust Yahoo will filter the recipients so none of you gets this more than once. I know I owe you adjudications for all three of these games, but I've had a bad day (to keep things clean and simple). I'll send out adjudications for all three games tomorrow morning, after I get the oldest kid off to school and have some peace to think. ;o)
Andy/Wolf
I'm a Firefly fan and proud! Read my fiction:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1369632/[Reply] |
| NNIGTFML tomorrow! - TheWhiteWolf (Sep 15, 2009, 12:50 am) |
Feel free to not take your builds, folks. I'd be happy to put them to good use in your stead. But only if it would be a burden to take them yourselves, you know.
;o)
Wolf
I'm a Firefly fan and proud! Read my fiction:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1369632/
--- On Mon, 9/14/09, Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeh, yeh, that would *really* suck.
From: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>
Still waiting on a few lucky llamalian builds for tomorrow!
You earned them, would sure suck to not put them on the board…
[Reply] |
| DC-224 Winter 10 Adjustments Deadline Reminder - former.trout (Sep 15, 2009, 12:31 am) |
Too late, too late - will be the cryWhen the man with adjustments has passed you by.
Winter 10 adjustments - due in 18.5 hours. Don't make me go all Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels on you all. =)
Hatchet Harry Trout[Reply] |
| DC270: Fall 1902 Retreats - dipknight (Sep 14, 2009, 10:51 pm) |
GM’s remarks:
Please be aware, per the House Rules, perpetual orders are not a valid option. Perpetual orders forces me to make a judgment on your behalf. This would be unfair to the other players and is not acceptable in any form.
There was a couple of retreat orders received today (Monday). That tells me that there are those among us that do not have computer access (or at least, do not play) over the weekend. I will keep that in mind when setting deadlines in the future. Thanks.
The Players:
Austria: Dan Huck aefgirt7(at)yahoo.com ([email]aefgirt7(at)yahoo.com[/email])
England: Samuel Jurado samuel.jurado(at)yahoo.com ([email]samuel.jurado(at)yahoo.com[/email])
France: Tim Vaillemans tim.vaillemans(at)gmail.com ([email]tim.vaillemans(at)gmail.com[/email])
Germany: Joe Babinsnack chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com ([email]chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com[/email])
Italy: Ian Shaw ianxshaw(at)gmail.com ([email]ianxshaw(at)gmail.com[/email])
Russia: Joe Payne josepayne(at)gmail.com ([email]josepayne(at)gmail.com[/email])
Turkey: Brandon Wade bwhotmale1(at)hotmail.com ([email]bwhotmale1(at)hotmail.com[/email])
The Orders:
Austria:
F gre - alb
England:
England: F stp(nc) - bar
France:
No Retreats Required
Germany:
No Retreats Required
Italy:
A trl - pie
Russia:
No Retreats Required
Turkey:
A con - smy
Retreats:
See above
Centers and Unit Positions:
Austria:
Centers (5): bud, bul, ser, tri, vie.
Units: F adr, F alb, A bul, A tri, A trl
Build/Disband: 0
England:
Centers (4): edi, lvp, lon, nwy.
Units: F bar, F nth, F nwy
Build/disband: +1
France:
Centers (4): bre, mar, par, por.
Units: A bur, F lyo, F mao, A pic
Build/Disband: 0
Germany:
Centers (6): bel, ber, den, hol, kie, mun.
Units: A bel, F den, A gas, F hol, A mun, A ruh
Build/Disbands: 0
Italy:
Centers (4): nap, rom, tun, ven.
Units: F apu, F ion, A pie, A ven
Build/Disband: 0
Russia:
Centers: (6): con, mos, rum, sev, stp, swe, war.
Units: F bla, A con, A fin, A rum, F stp(nc), F swe
Build/Disband: +1
Turkey:
Centers (4): ank, gre, smy.
Units: F ank, F gre, A smy
Build/Disband: 0
Deadline:
Winter Builds 1902 Deadline: Wednesday; September 16, 2009; 24:00 hrs GMT.
Map of the retreats, map of the results, and the dpy file are attached for your use.
Best of luck in the next season, Darryl (GM)[Reply] |
| NNIGTFML tomorrow! - packrat (Sep 14, 2009, 9:38 pm) |
Yeh, yeh, that would *really* suck.
From: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>
To: Jack McHugh <jwmchughjr(at)gmail.com>; The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com>; Benjamin Hester <screwtape777(at)gmail.com>; Jason K <githraine(at)yahoo.com>; brn2dip(at)yahoo.com; jchdipaccount(at)gmail.com; Gregory_Olson(at)brown.edu; drew3739o(at)yahoo.com; alley_cat_1990(at)hotmail.com; dc273 <dc273(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 10:16:57 PM
Subject: NNIGTFML tomorrow!
Still waiting on a few lucky llamalian builds for tomorrow!
You earned them, would sure suck to not put them on the board…
From: Michael Sims
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:05 PM
Subject: NNIGTFML f01 results!
Well isn’t this quite a diverse opening we’ve got here! Some players on 2 centers, others on 7. The big winner for the day has to be Brazil with 3 builds on top of a 4 to start, while Bolivia just manages to break even when their capital falls to Chile . Peru and Colombia bounce over the Galapagos Islands , while the other 3 manage a relatively uneventful pair of builds. Net results?
Argentina: Build 2
Brasil: Build 3
Chile: Build 2
Colombia: Build 2
Paraguay: Build 2
Peru: Build 1
Venezuela: Build 2
Bolivia gets the turn off
BUILDS due Tuesday 9/15, 6pm Central
Argentina:
A Mendoza - Patagonia
F Montevideo - Rio Grande do Sul (*Fails*)
A Salta - Potosi (*Bounce*)
Brasil:
A Mato Grosso - Santa Cruz
F Pernambuco - Maranhao
F Rio Grande do Sul Hold
A Sao Paulo Supports F Rio Grande do Sul
Bolivia:
F Atacama Desert - Arica
A La Paz - Potosi (*Bounce*)
Chile:
A Arancaunian Territory - Punta Arenas
F Golfo de Guafo - Antofagasta
Colombia:
A Cali - Quito
F Golfo de Panama - Galapagos (*Bounce*)
F Panama (nc) Hold
Paraguay:
A Asuncion - Corrientes
A Parana Supports F Montevideo - Rio Grande do Sul
Peru:
F Bahia Sechura - Galapagos (*Bounce*)
A Iquitos Hold
Venezuela:
A Angostura Hold
F Caracas - Cumana[Reply] |
| NNIGTFML tomorrow! - FuzzyLogic (Sep 14, 2009, 9:13 pm) |
Still waiting on a few lucky llamalian builds for tomorrow!
You earned them, would sure suck to not put them on the board…
From: Michael Sims
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:05 PM
Subject: NNIGTFML f01 results!
Well isn’t this quite a diverse opening we’ve got here! Some players on 2 centers, others on 7. The big winner for the day has to be Brazil with 3 builds on top of a 4 to start, while Bolivia just manages to break even when their capital falls to Chile. Peru and Colombia bounce over the Galapagos Islands, while the other 3 manage a relatively uneventful pair of builds. Net results?
Argentina: Build 2
Brasil: Build 3
Chile: Build 2
Colombia: Build 2
Paraguay: Build 2
Peru: Build 1
Venezuela: Build 2
Bolivia gets the turn off
BUILDS due Tuesday 9/15, 6pm Central
Argentina:
A Mendoza - Patagonia
F Montevideo - Rio Grande do Sul (*Fails*)
A Salta - Potosi (*Bounce*)
Brasil:
A Mato Grosso - Santa Cruz
F Pernambuco - Maranhao
F Rio Grande do Sul Hold
A Sao Paulo Supports F Rio Grande do Sul
Bolivia:
F Atacama Desert - Arica
A La Paz - Potosi (*Bounce*)
Chile:
A Arancaunian Territory - Punta Arenas
F Golfo de Guafo - Antofagasta
Colombia:
A Cali - Quito
F Golfo de Panama - Galapagos (*Bounce*)
F Panama(nc) Hold
Paraguay:
A Asuncion - Corrientes
A Parana Supports F Montevideo - Rio Grande do Sul
Peru:
F Bahia Sechura - Galapagos (*Bounce*)
A Iquitos Hold
Venezuela:
A Angostura Hold
F Caracas - Cumana[Reply] |
| NNIGTFML tomorrow! (dc273) packrat Sep 14, 09:38 pm |
Yeh, yeh, that would *really* suck.
From: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>
To: Jack McHugh <jwmchughjr(at)gmail.com>; The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com>; Benjamin Hester <screwtape777(at)gmail.com>; Jason K <githraine(at)yahoo.com>; brn2dip(at)yahoo.com; jchdipaccount(at)gmail.com; Gregory_Olson(at)brown.edu; drew3739o(at)yahoo.com; alley_cat_1990(at)hotmail.com; dc273 <dc273(at)diplomaticcorp.com>
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 10:16:57 PM
Subject: NNIGTFML tomorrow!
Still waiting on a few lucky llamalian builds for tomorrow!
You earned them, would sure suck to not put them on the board…
From: Michael Sims
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:05 PM
Subject: NNIGTFML f01 results!
Well isn’t this quite a diverse opening we’ve got here! Some players on 2 centers, others on 7. The big winner for the day has to be Brazil with 3 builds on top of a 4 to start, while Bolivia just manages to break even when their capital falls to Chile . Peru and Colombia bounce over the Galapagos Islands , while the other 3 manage a relatively uneventful pair of builds. Net results?
Argentina: Build 2
Brasil: Build 3
Chile: Build 2
Colombia: Build 2
Paraguay: Build 2
Peru: Build 1
Venezuela: Build 2
Bolivia gets the turn off
BUILDS due Tuesday 9/15, 6pm Central
Argentina:
A Mendoza - Patagonia
F Montevideo - Rio Grande do Sul (*Fails*)
A Salta - Potosi (*Bounce*)
Brasil:
A Mato Grosso - Santa Cruz
F Pernambuco - Maranhao
F Rio Grande do Sul Hold
A Sao Paulo Supports F Rio Grande do Sul
Bolivia:
F Atacama Desert - Arica
A La Paz - Potosi (*Bounce*)
Chile:
A Arancaunian Territory - Punta Arenas
F Golfo de Guafo - Antofagasta
Colombia:
A Cali - Quito
F Golfo de Panama - Galapagos (*Bounce*)
F Panama (nc) Hold
Paraguay:
A Asuncion - Corrientes
A Parana Supports F Montevideo - Rio Grande do Sul
Peru:
F Bahia Sechura - Galapagos (*Bounce*)
A Iquitos Hold
Venezuela:
A Angostura Hold
F Caracas - Cumana |
| NNIGTFML tomorrow! (dc273) TheWhiteWolf Sep 15, 12:50 am |
Feel free to not take your builds, folks. I'd be happy to put them to good use in your stead. But only if it would be a burden to take them yourselves, you know.
;o)
Wolf
I'm a Firefly fan and proud! Read my fiction:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1369632/
--- On Mon, 9/14/09, Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeh, yeh, that would *really* suck.
From: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>
Still waiting on a few lucky llamalian builds for tomorrow!
You earned them, would sure suck to not put them on the board…
|
| NNIGTFML tomorrow! (dc273) packrat Sep 15, 05:58 am |
Ah - Andy - you're not in *this* game.
From: The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com>
To: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>; Jack McHugh <jwmchughjr(at)gmail.com>; Benjamin Hester <screwtape777(at)gmail.com>; Jason K <githraine(at)yahoo.com>; jchdipaccount(at)gmail.com; Gregory_Olson(at)brown.edu; drew3739o(at)yahoo.com; alley_cat_1990(at)hotmail.com; dc273 <dc273(at)diplomaticcorp.com>; Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 1:50:44 AM
Subject: Re: NNIGTFML tomorrow!
Feel free to not take your builds, folks. I'd be happy to put them to good use in your stead. But only if it would be a burden to take them yourselves, you know.
;o)
Wolf
I'm a Firefly fan and proud! Read my fiction:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1369632/
--- On Mon, 9/14/09, Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeh, yeh, that would *really* suck.
From: Michael Sims <mike(at)fuzzylogicllc.net>
Still waiting on a few lucky llamalian builds for tomorrow!
You earned them, would sure suck to not put them on the board…
|
| NNIGTFML tomorrow! (dc273) TheWhiteWolf Sep 15, 08:51 am |
What? I'm not? Aww, crap.
Mike, please let the Venezuelan people know I'm not really El Presidente, that I've simply been an imposter this past year. A fool parading in the streets with a crown, cape and scepter.
I'll turn in my keys to the presidential palace promptly (wow, try saying that five times fast!) and vacate the premises. Packrat, thank you for rescuing these poor souls from following the wrong leader!
Posing Presidente Lobo
--- On Tue, 9/15/09, Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Ah - Andy - you're not in *this* game.
|
| NNIGTFML tomorrow! (dc273) FuzzyLogic Sep 28, 04:03 pm |
| Just a brief reminder that Fall 1836 is due less than 24 hours from this very moment... |
| DC 260 (Asian): S1906 Adjudication - AceRimmer (Sep 14, 2009, 2:52 pm) |
With the whole map standing by and watching, India forces the Arabian Sea. Truly, the whole map was standing by. Siberia bedazzles us with another stunning display of "How to Hold 401: Graduate Level Holding". Unassaulted, Japan's units also go nowhere. The non-ARS Persian and Indian units stand or stand off in various manners...
And then there's Indonesia, who safely orders A Borneo to Honk Kong (note: India failed to submit orders for the Honk Kong army, so it held). Indonesia also entered Laos and Bay of Bengal. Methinks I smell a rat. Mr. Schmidt, are you a rat? Perhaps future turns will tell.
There are two retreats, due tomorrow:
The Persian fleet in Arabian Sea may retreat to Yemen, Eastern African Sea, Red Sea, or OTB.
The Indian army in Hong Kong can retreat to Chongqing, Vietnam, or OTB.
Spring 1906 Adjudication:
India:
F Bay of Bengal - Arabian Sea
A Beijing Supports A Mongolia
F Bombay Supports F Bay of Bengal - Arabian Sea
A Delhi Supports A Pakistan
A Hong Kong Hold (*Dislodged*)
A Kunlun - Tien Shan (*Bounce*)
A Mongolia Supports A Kunlun - Tien Shan
A Pakistan Hold
F Sri Lanka Supports F Bay of Bengal - Arabian Sea
A Tien Shan - Afghanistan (*Fails*)
Indonesia:
A Borneo - Hong Kong
F Central Indian Ocean Supports F Bay of Bengal - Arabian Sea
F East China Sea Supports F Shanghai
F Philippines Supports F East China Sea
F South China Sea Convoys A Borneo - Hong Kong
F Seychelles Supports F Bay of Bengal - Arabian Sea
F Shanghai Supports A Borneo - Hong Kong
F Sumatra - Bay of Bengal
A Vietnam - Laos
Japan:
F Hokkaido - Sea of Okhotsk (*Fails*)
F Honshu Hold
Persia:
A Afghanistan - Tien Shan (*Bounce*)
F Arabian Sea - Pakistan (*Dislodged*)
F Caspian Sea Supports A Moscow
F East Africa Supports F Persian Gulf - Arabian Sea
A Iran Supports F Arabian Sea - Pakistan
A Livonia Supports A Moscow
A Moscow Hold
F Oman Supports F Persian Gulf - Arabian Sea
F Persian Gulf - Arabian Sea (*Fails*)
A Uzbekistan Supports A Afghanistan - Tien Shan
Siberia:
F Bering Strait Supports F Sea of Okhotsk
A Ekaterinburg Supports A Kazakhstan
A Kazakhstan Supports A Novosibirsk
A Korea Supports A Manchuria
A Manchuria Supports A Korea
A Novosibirsk Supports A Kazakhstan
F Sea of Okhotsk Hold
A St. Petersburg Supports A Urals
A Urals Supports A St. Petersburg[Reply] |
| DC 218 SHIFT LEFT:GERMAN SOLO - FALL 1914 - packrat (Sep 14, 2009, 1:05 pm) |
Gentlemen:
Would any of you be interested in playing another round of shift left? Or perhaps
Shift Right? This would be a Vegas-free game. I would, of course, GM it.
From: Jack McHugh <jwmchughjr(at)gmail.com>
To: Matt Kremer <matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu>
Cc: Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com>; the_master642(at)yahoo.com; The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com>; Stephen Worthy <stephen(at)worthy1.fsnet.co.uk>; g_mod23(at)hotmail.com; scaponig(at)yahoo.com; stephenworthy(at)rocketmail.com; camorse22(at)yahoo.com; stevelytton(at)gmail.com; dc218(at)diplomaticcorp.com
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 11:49:05 AM
Subject: Re: DC 218 SHIFT LEFT:GERMAN SOLO - FALL 1914
matt,
i understand..i tried to settle it quickly and i offered to resign but scott didn't feel that was necessary and i didn't want to mess the game up anymore so i stayed but that's part of the reason i didn't talk as much...it kind of left me feeling "what's the point?" after a player wanted me tossed from the game and then resigned when i wasn't...its a shame because i think this is a good variant and i would like to play it again...
jack
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Matt Kremer <matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu ([email]matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu[/email])> wrote:
Jack (and others),
Don't read more into my comments than is there. I am not accusing anyone other than Mike of wrongdoing; I just think it might have been settled more quickly and peacefully than it was, but I also understand that Mike's accusations caused heated emotions, and I don't blame you for this. And I agree with all your comments about the game and how and why we play it. All I wanted to make clear in my EOG was that the huge argument turned me off from the game a bit and for some reason I could not fully bring my heart back into it after that, and I think this somewhat contributed to the ease with which Chris played me.
Matt
Jack McHugh wrote:
[quote:2616a3a193] matt.
I thought Mike was completely out of line with his temper tantrum and resignation, nothing short of cheating justifies that and he that's not why he resigned...
I have to say in my 25 years of pbm, pbem and ftf play, I've been in a lot of games where players did what I thought were moves that were not in their best interest or even in the interest of stopping someone from winning and I have NEVER resigned due to other people refusing to do what I wanted or not pitching to help stop the leader...
That's part of the game--its DIPLOMACY, e.g. you suppose to convince people to do what you want, to leave because people won't do what you want is contrary to the spirit of the game...and I don't want to play with anyone who is going to resign because people won't do what they want...
and sorry, I think having my integrity question is a BIG thing and is worth arguing about...he basically accused me of throwing the game to France because I wouldn't help him...which was not true and when i denied he basically called me a liar...which i am in the game but not outside of the game...
i also agree i would play the game differently but then that's true of almost any variant I play for the first time (in fact often true of variants i've played several times, that's the mark of a good variant in my opinion...)
jack
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Matt Kremer <matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu ([email]matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu[/email]) <mailto:matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu ([email]matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu[/email])>> wrote:
Hey guys,
First off, congrats to Chris; at least with respect to me he
played the perfect balance of helping me and then turning on me
right before I would have been ready to fend him off. As for the
rest of this game, I must admit that this was one of the most
annoying games of which I have been a part. The initial Germany's
tantrum was obviously a big part of this, but I also thought that
other people didn't help the situation by blowing the situation up
into a huge argument. And, looking back at the game as a whole,
even though I don't approve of Mike's actions I actually agree
with some of the things he was saying strategically, and I would
play this variant very very differently were I to play it again.
Matt
Russia
Packrat wrote:
First, and foremost - congratulations to Chris Morse for his
solo with 18 centers!!
Second - Thank you to ALL of you who stuck it out to the very
end.
The final orders:
Austria:
F Aegean Sea - Constantinople
A Armenia Supports A Sevastopol
A Bulgaria Supports A Rumania
A Greece Hold
A Rumania Supports A Vienna - Budapest
A Sevastopol Supports A Rumania
A Trieste Supports A Tyrolia - Vienna
A Tyrolia - Vienna
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Gulf of Lyon
A Venice - Tyrolia
A Vienna - Budapest
France:
A Brest - Gascony
A Marseilles - Spain (*Dislodged*)
A Paris - Burgundy (*Fails*)
Germany:
A Bohemia Supports A Galicia
A Burgundy - Paris (*Fails*)
F English Channel Supports A Picardy - Brest
A Galicia, no move received
A Gascony - Marseilles
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Portugal
A Moscow Supports A Ukraine
A Munich Supports A Bohemia
F North Atlantic Ocean - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Picardy - Brest
A Silesia Supports A Bohemia
A Spain Supports A Gascony - Marseilles
A Ukraine Supports A Galicia
A Wales Hold
A Warsaw Supports A Galicia
Italy:
F Adriatic Sea Hold
F Ionian Sea - Tunis
F Naples Supports A Tuscany - Rome
A Tuscany - Rome
Turkey:
F Black Sea Supports A Sevastopol
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/quote:2616a3a193][Reply] |
| Unknown - charlesf (Sep 14, 2009, 12:07 pm) |
[quote:40779d48bc="charlesf"]Stephen Agar was right in saying: "I have no hesitation in saying that most variants are crap."
I'd say that line is pretty disheartening for someone of his caliber. I understand purists are out there, but variants take the same general premise and turn it into something fresh.[/quote:40779d48bc]
Well, Stephen is the very opposite of a purist. After all he's the custodian of the variantbank and has designed a fair number of variants himself.
Most good boardgames will develop variants or expansions. Any active boardgamers (outside of Diplomacy) will be well exposed to this.
Hm, I'd say only a small fraction of all boardgames published every year spawn expansions or whole franchises (e.g. Carcassonne) whereas there's a whole universe of fan-made Diplomacy variants. I don't think any other modern boardgame has become a hobby unto its own as Diplomacy has become.
Yes, "unpolished" variants are bad. (heh us Poles might interpret "unpolish" variants are bad  )
Yep. And Stephen contends most variants are unpolished. I agree. Few variants are as meticulously crafted as to become polished.
It takes time, and it takes all the finishing touches that many miss. I think we should use the Variants forum more for this sort of thing.
Perhaps some such discussions will shift from the Diplomacy Variants Workshop over here someday. Redscape used to have a very active variants forum, but for some reason it no longer exists. A shame. Lots of interesting discussion in there, back then.
One very important key to variant design, is that every piece, from its starting location, has to have multiple "good" places to go that will help one neighbor but hurt another.
Aye.
And that every world power has the ability to directly influence at least 3 other powers, at game start.
You think that's the case with Ancient Med?
Another place variants tend to miss the mark, is putting too much "white space".
I agree with Stephen that the unit to space ration should be in the 1:2 to 1:2.5 range. Standard clocks in at 2.2.
Another issue can be "supply lines" particularly in large variants. The distance you have to travel from your home centers in order to get new units into play. This needs to be kept down to 3-4 turns. If it takes more than that, then building new units is too slow.
Talking tempi here. An issue of course directly tied to the aforementioned unit-to-space ratio.
I've played 1900. It was good, no argument there. I really enjoyed it. But I wouldnt say it's "superior" to standard, just different.
1900 is:
- more historically accurate (e.g. Germany's the military powerhouse it ought to be)
- more interactive (e.g. Britain and Turkey have FAR MORE to discuss than in Standard)
- more balanced (i.e. no power is sure a severe underdog as Standard's Italy).
Add to that that the expanded board affords more options for many powers and stalemate lines are far less of an issue. I think this all makes 1900 the superior design.
As for Ancient Mediterranean ... utterly bland
Totally disagree. The balance in AM is fantastic, the convoy action is great, and the dichotomy of whether to build armies or fleets is great too. It is an extremely well-balanced game. Possibly too much so, as a little imbalance makes things interesting. One of my favorites.[/quote]
I think the fundamental problem is that you only have five human variables arranged in a ring. It's IMO not complex enough a situation and that is compounded by the map having two distinct theatres, the West and the East.
Then see Ancient World. It's AM w just like you describe. Great variant. Want to run one? 
He, I'm running a 1900 and my 1648 game. For the foreseeable future, I'll limit myself to GMing my own creations.
[quote:40779d48bc="charlesf"]I think in that respect Hundred got it right.
Played this one too, and I dont agree. I rather found Hundred a bit boring.[/quote:40779d48bc]
I'm not saying that a 3-people variant is advisable. But if you do go down that route, you gotta use a low victory threshold. That's what I meant, when saying: "in that respect Hundred got it right".
Still doesn't mean I want to play Hundred. So I dare say we're here in actual agreement.
Variants can be good. They just need to be well thought out, and have all the finishing touches in place.
-mike
Sure. Doesn't mean though that all or indeed most meet that standard.[Reply] |
| dc230 French EGS - FuzzyLogic (Sep 14, 2009, 11:49 am) |
I guess it's time to think back on this game, and put some thoughts on paper. It started out simple enough - EFG were going to run a Western Triple. But that didnt last even a year, as Josh and myself were planning Aiden's downfall during the first year. Normally I'd love to pull off a triple, but the option to take out England early on w a quick strike was tempting. 01 results were good, England opened north, Germany got the strong 6-center start, and I opened to the south coast of Spain, to the dismay of Bruce / Italy. We were able to reassure Italy that it wasnt really a move at him, for in the next year we both demilitarized the Western Med in a very trusting set of moves. Then the battle lines were drawn, FG vs E, AI vs T, and R dipping into both wars.
At this point I think Aiden you played too conservatively. You didnt try to turn me, or more likley, turn Germany on me. I could have been destroyed for a couple years, leaving only a single army to defend the homeland. Josh didnt tho, and kept on w our team, so England went down. Too fast for Italy I'm sure, since we took out England but Turkey (Jeff) was still alive. This meant we got the jump we needed on both Russia (Justin) and Italy. With them still fighting a Turk that wouldnt die, we could put our full force behind the attacks and win out, which is exactly what happened. (in hindsight Bruce, I think had you picked TI vs A instead of AI vs T, you'd have done better. You got latched onto the weaker of the two in the east against Jeff instead of with Jeff against Nathan).
Moving on, England fell quickly. If either England had taken a bit longer than the couple turns it took to invade, or if Turkey went down quicker, then it's a new game - but the early imbalance turned into an avalanche and two more powers I/R fell shortly after.
Next on the list was Austria (Nathan) who didnt stand a chance against the German war machine with nobody left to help him. Invaded in Spring 07, he promptly bailed on the game in the face of unavoidable death.
Now enters Darryl, the new Austrian who brought a breath of fresh air into the game that was kinda boring at this point, just attacking w/o much Diplomacy. Your efforts got me reinterested in it, and your desire to get a decent result out of a tough country was commendable. Unfortunately for you, this turn was the turn I got 3 builds from finishing off Italy, and so those 3 builds allowed me to fill the holes at home, and make a stab less likely from Germany. Had Germany stabbed me in 07, he might have got the win, for he had a clear path to Paris, plus overwhelming forces in the east. It would have been close.
The stab didnt happen, so we carried on. At this point a 2-way draw floated, and I voted yes to it - but (I'm guessing) Germany voted no. Everything was looking like Germany was going to solo. He had 14 dots, with a path to 4 more in the Balkans, so Austria and I started diploming to put up a wall. These activities got me into Greece and Belgium, two important spots. Belgium was a move against Germany. Not a stab, as I made it clear I was doing this to keep him from soloing, and a necessary redistribution. I think this annoyed Josh that I did this (understandable), and we talked a lot less after it. Also at this point I started to see the possibility that not only would Germany only reach 17 after losing Bel, but I could conceivably get 18. Especially w that good turn, I put some more fleets in play which would eventually overpower Scandinavia.
I kept the pressure on Germany with Austria for a few turns, then laid the knife into Darryl (sorry!) for what I thought was the needed positioning for the win, i.e. Constantinople, and a gateway to the Black Sea. Once I got in there, I could lock down Bulgaria and avoid any losses on that front while I got the last few that were needed in the north.
To get any solo, something has to break down, and in this case I think it's that A/G were never able to work together (really not sure why, as both were active diplomats). There were many points at which if they teamed up, they could have booted me from Tyrolia, Greece, or even Trieste, but it didnt happen so here we are.
Good game to all, I hope to meet you all again, save for maybe the first Austria who bailed since I cant stand when ppl give up on positions. This game can always be turned around w some effort. Thanks to Babak for running it - and coming up w the creative theme, and Trout for finishing up the 2nd half, as always the many hats you wear are entertaining, and your GM'ing is the best in the hobby.
Well I guess that's probly more than most of you cared about.  Glad to hear any other thoughts on the game!
-mike
France
From: Josh E. [mailto:aramis604(at)yahoo.com]
Sent: Sat 9/12/2009 2:44 AM
Subject: Re: DC230 Lost Kings - Fall 1911 - Grow Your Own F*ing Mustache A**hole!!
Congrats Mike! Another well earned win.
- Josh[Reply] |
| DC 218 SHIFT LEFT:GERMAN SOLO - FALL 1914 - FlapJack (Sep 14, 2009, 10:48 am) |
matt,
i understand..i tried to settle it quickly and i offered to resign but scott didn't feel that was necessary and i didn't want to mess the game up anymore so i stayed but that's part of the reason i didn't talk as much...it kind of left me feeling "what's the point?" after a player wanted me tossed from the game and then resigned when i wasn't...its a shame because i think this is a good variant and i would like to play it again...
jack
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Matt Kremer <matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu ([email]matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu[/email])> wrote:
Jack (and others),
Don't read more into my comments than is there. I am not accusing anyone other than Mike of wrongdoing; I just think it might have been settled more quickly and peacefully than it was, but I also understand that Mike's accusations caused heated emotions, and I don't blame you for this. And I agree with all your comments about the game and how and why we play it. All I wanted to make clear in my EOG was that the huge argument turned me off from the game a bit and for some reason I could not fully bring my heart back into it after that, and I think this somewhat contributed to the ease with which Chris played me.
Matt
Jack McHugh wrote:
[quote:8a12a69c55] matt.
I thought Mike was completely out of line with his temper tantrum and resignation, nothing short of cheating justifies that and he that's not why he resigned...
I have to say in my 25 years of pbm, pbem and ftf play, I've been in a lot of games where players did what I thought were moves that were not in their best interest or even in the interest of stopping someone from winning and I have NEVER resigned due to other people refusing to do what I wanted or not pitching to help stop the leader...
That's part of the game--its DIPLOMACY, e.g. you suppose to convince people to do what you want, to leave because people won't do what you want is contrary to the spirit of the game...and I don't want to play with anyone who is going to resign because people won't do what they want...
and sorry, I think having my integrity question is a BIG thing and is worth arguing about...he basically accused me of throwing the game to France because I wouldn't help him...which was not true and when i denied he basically called me a liar...which i am in the game but not outside of the game...
i also agree i would play the game differently but then that's true of almost any variant I play for the first time (in fact often true of variants i've played several times, that's the mark of a good variant in my opinion...)
jack
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Matt Kremer <matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu ([email]matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu[/email]) <mailto:matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu ([email]matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu[/email])>> wrote:
Hey guys,
First off, congrats to Chris; at least with respect to me he
played the perfect balance of helping me and then turning on me
right before I would have been ready to fend him off. As for the
rest of this game, I must admit that this was one of the most
annoying games of which I have been a part. The initial Germany's
tantrum was obviously a big part of this, but I also thought that
other people didn't help the situation by blowing the situation up
into a huge argument. And, looking back at the game as a whole,
even though I don't approve of Mike's actions I actually agree
with some of the things he was saying strategically, and I would
play this variant very very differently were I to play it again.
Matt
Russia
Packrat wrote:
First, and foremost - congratulations to Chris Morse for his
solo with 18 centers!!
Second - Thank you to ALL of you who stuck it out to the very
end.
The final orders:
Austria:
F Aegean Sea - Constantinople
A Armenia Supports A Sevastopol
A Bulgaria Supports A Rumania
A Greece Hold
A Rumania Supports A Vienna - Budapest
A Sevastopol Supports A Rumania
A Trieste Supports A Tyrolia - Vienna
A Tyrolia - Vienna
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Gulf of Lyon
A Venice - Tyrolia
A Vienna - Budapest
France:
A Brest - Gascony
A Marseilles - Spain (*Dislodged*)
A Paris - Burgundy (*Fails*)
Germany:
A Bohemia Supports A Galicia
A Burgundy - Paris (*Fails*)
F English Channel Supports A Picardy - Brest
A Galicia, no move received
A Gascony - Marseilles
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Portugal
A Moscow Supports A Ukraine
A Munich Supports A Bohemia
F North Atlantic Ocean - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Picardy - Brest
A Silesia Supports A Bohemia
A Spain Supports A Gascony - Marseilles
A Ukraine Supports A Galicia
A Wales Hold
A Warsaw Supports A Galicia
Italy:
F Adriatic Sea Hold
F Ionian Sea - Tunis
F Naples Supports A Tuscany - Rome
A Tuscany - Rome
Turkey:
F Black Sea Supports A Sevastopol
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/quote:8a12a69c55][Reply] |
| DC 218 SHIFT LEFT:GERMAN SOLO - FALL 1914 - camorse22 (Sep 14, 2009, 10:46 am) |
I think I'm finally beginning to see why it was so difficult to get everyone engaged in the beginning. Sounds like burn-out from a rather nasty contretemps.
For what it's worth, I agree very strongly with the Jack's principles. That IS what Diplomacy is about. You can't up and quit just because someone doesn't accept your arguments. And if someone gets snotty or rude with me they can forget about getting my support after that.
Quitters ruin things for everyone, which is why I often step in and take replacement positions. I'm not quite as bold about it as I used to be, though. Now I check out who's playing and who's GM'ing before I sign up. Picking this game was easy on that score. I would gladly play with any of you gentlemen again.
Chris
From: Jack McHugh <jwmchughjr(at)gmail.com>
To: Matt Kremer <matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu>
Cc: Packrat <brn2dip(at)yahoo.com>; the_master642(at)yahoo.com; The White Wolf <cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com>; Stephen Worthy <stephen(at)worthy1.fsnet.co.uk>; g_mod23(at)hotmail.com; scaponig(at)yahoo.com; stephenworthy(at)rocketmail.com; camorse22(at)yahoo.com; stevelytton(at)gmail.com; dc218(at)diplomaticcorp.com
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 11:30:12 AM
Subject: Re: DC 218 SHIFT LEFT:GERMAN SOLO - FALL 1914
matt.
I thought Mike was completely out of line with his temper tantrum and resignation, nothing short of cheating justifies that and he that's not why he resigned...
I have to say in my 25 years of pbm, pbem and ftf play, I've been in a lot of games where players did what I thought were moves that were not in their best interest or even in the interest of stopping someone from winning and I have NEVER resigned due to other people refusing to do what I wanted or not pitching to help stop the leader...
That's part of the game--its DIPLOMACY, e.g. you suppose to convince people to do what you want, to leave because people won't do what you want is contrary to the spirit of the game...and I don't want to play with anyone who is going to resign because people won't do what they want...
and sorry, I think having my integrity question is a BIG thing and is worth arguing about...he basically accused me of throwing the game to France because I wouldn't help him...which was not true and when i denied he basically called me a liar...which i am in the game but not outside of the game...
i also agree i would play the game differently but then that's true of almost any variant I play for the first time (in fact often true of variants i've played several times, that's the mark of a good variant in my opinion...)
jack
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Matt Kremer <matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu ([email]matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu[/email])> wrote:
Hey guys,
First off, congrats to Chris; at least with respect to me he played the perfect balance of helping me and then turning on me right before I would have been ready to fend him off. As for the rest of this game, I must admit that this was one of the most annoying games of which I have been a part. The initial Germany's tantrum was obviously a big part of this, but I also thought that other people didn't help the situation by blowing the situation up into a huge argument. And, looking back at the game as a whole, even though I don't approve of Mike's actions I actually agree with some of the things he was saying strategically, and I would play this variant very very differently were I to play it again.
Matt
Russia
Packrat wrote:
[quote:d3f745c86d]
First, and foremost - congratulations to Chris Morse for his solo with 18 centers!!
Second - Thank you to ALL of you who stuck it out to the very end.
The final orders:
Austria:
F Aegean Sea - Constantinople
A Armenia Supports A Sevastopol
A Bulgaria Supports A Rumania
A Greece Hold
A Rumania Supports A Vienna - Budapest
A Sevastopol Supports A Rumania
A Trieste Supports A Tyrolia - Vienna
A Tyrolia - Vienna
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Gulf of Lyon
A Venice - Tyrolia
A Vienna - Budapest
France:
A Brest - Gascony
A Marseilles - Spain (*Dislodged*)
A Paris - Burgundy (*Fails*)
Germany:
A Bohemia Supports A Galicia
A Burgundy - Paris (*Fails*)
F English Channel Supports A Picardy - Brest
A Galicia, no move received
A Gascony - Marseilles
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Portugal
A Moscow Supports A Ukraine
A Munich Supports A Bohemia
F North Atlantic Ocean - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Picardy - Brest
A Silesia Supports A Bohemia
A Spain Supports A Gascony - Marseilles
A Ukraine Supports A Galicia
A Wales Hold
A Warsaw Supports A Galicia
Italy:
F Adriatic Sea Hold
F Ionian Sea - Tunis
F Naples Supports A Tuscany - Rome
A Tuscany - Rome
Turkey:
F Black Sea Supports A Sevastopol
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/quote:d3f745c86d][Reply] |
| DC 218 SHIFT LEFT:GERMAN SOLO - FALL 1914 - MattTheLesser (Sep 14, 2009, 10:36 am) |
Jack (and others),
Don't read more into my comments than is there. I am not accusing
anyone other than Mike of wrongdoing; I just think it might have been
settled more quickly and peacefully than it was, but I also understand
that Mike's accusations caused heated emotions, and I don't blame you
for this. And I agree with all your comments about the game and how and
why we play it. All I wanted to make clear in my EOG was that the huge
argument turned me off from the game a bit and for some reason I could
not fully bring my heart back into it after that, and I think this
somewhat contributed to the ease with which Chris played me.
Matt
Jack McHugh wrote:
matt.
I thought Mike was completely out of line with his temper tantrum and
resignation, nothing short of cheating justifies that and he that's
not why he resigned...
I have to say in my 25 years of pbm, pbem and ftf play, I've been in a
lot of games where players did what I thought were moves that were not
in their best interest or even in the interest of stopping someone
from winning and I have NEVER resigned due to other people refusing to
do what I wanted or not pitching to help stop the leader...
That's part of the game--its DIPLOMACY, e.g. you suppose to convince
people to do what you want, to leave because people won't do what you
want is contrary to the spirit of the game...and I don't want to play
with anyone who is going to resign because people won't do what they
want...
and sorry, I think having my integrity question is a BIG thing and is
worth arguing about...he basically accused me of throwing the game to
France because I wouldn't help him...which was not true and when i
denied he basically called me a liar...which i am in the game but not
outside of the game...
i also agree i would play the game differently but then that's true of
almost any variant I play for the first time (in fact often true of
variants i've played several times, that's the mark of a good variant
in my opinion...)
jack
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Matt Kremer <matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu
<mailto:matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu>> wrote:
Hey guys,
First off, congrats to Chris; at least with respect to me he
played the perfect balance of helping me and then turning on me
right before I would have been ready to fend him off. As for the
rest of this game, I must admit that this was one of the most
annoying games of which I have been a part. The initial Germany's
tantrum was obviously a big part of this, but I also thought that
other people didn't help the situation by blowing the situation up
into a huge argument. And, looking back at the game as a whole,
even though I don't approve of Mike's actions I actually agree
with some of the things he was saying strategically, and I would
play this variant very very differently were I to play it again.
Matt
Russia
Packrat wrote:
First, and foremost - congratulations to Chris Morse for his
solo with 18 centers!!
Second - Thank you to ALL of you who stuck it out to the very
end.
The final orders:
Austria:
F Aegean Sea - Constantinople
A Armenia Supports A Sevastopol
A Bulgaria Supports A Rumania
A Greece Hold
A Rumania Supports A Vienna - Budapest
A Sevastopol Supports A Rumania
A Trieste Supports A Tyrolia - Vienna
A Tyrolia - Vienna
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Gulf of Lyon
A Venice - Tyrolia
A Vienna - Budapest
France:
A Brest - Gascony
A Marseilles - Spain (*Dislodged*)
A Paris - Burgundy (*Fails*)
Germany:
A Bohemia Supports A Galicia
A Burgundy - Paris (*Fails*)
F English Channel Supports A Picardy - Brest
A Galicia, no move received
A Gascony - Marseilles
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Portugal
A Moscow Supports A Ukraine
A Munich Supports A Bohemia
F North Atlantic Ocean - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Picardy - Brest
A Silesia Supports A Bohemia
A Spain Supports A Gascony - Marseilles
A Ukraine Supports A Galicia
A Wales Hold
A Warsaw Supports A Galicia
Italy:
F Adriatic Sea Hold
F Ionian Sea - Tunis
F Naples Supports A Tuscany - Rome
A Tuscany - Rome
Turkey:
F Black Sea Supports A Sevastopol
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Reply] |
| Unknown - FuzzyLogic (Sep 14, 2009, 10:30 am) |
Stephen Agar was right in saying: "I have no hesitation in saying that most variants are crap."
I'd say that line is pretty disheartening for someone of his caliber. I understand purists are out there, but variants take the same general premise and turn it into something fresh. Most good boardgames will develop variants or expansions. Any active boardgamers (outside of Diplomacy) will be well exposed to this.
Yes, "unpolished" variants are bad. (heh us Poles might interpret "unpolish" variants are bad ) But a GM that puts the thought into making something great can create a very rewarding game. It takes time, and it takes all the finishing touches that many miss. I think we should use the Variants forum more for this sort of thing. Discussing new variants in development, and turn them into a nice finished product.
One very important key to variant design, is that every piece, from its starting location, has to have multiple "good" places to go that will help one neighbor but hurt another. All too many variant creators overlook this and put units in places where they may have multiple choices, but only 1 makes sense. This was one of the fundamentals in my Haven game, that every unit of every power has to make an important choice in the first round which way to go. And that every world power has the ability to directly influence at least 3 other powers, at game start.
Another place variants tend to miss the mark, is putting too much "white space". Neutral / vacant SCs. Use Standard as a model. 22 neutral land spaces, to 34 centers. If the vacant spaces ever approach or exceed the number of centers, then it's too much white space.
Another issue can be "supply lines" particularly in large variants. The distance you have to travel from your home centers in order to get new units into play. This needs to be kept down to 3-4 turns. If it takes more than that, then building new units is too slow. This can be mitigated w Chaos builds, but that's another story.
I've always admired 1900 and Ambition&Empire.
I've played 1900. It was good, no argument there. I really enjoyed it. But I wouldnt say it's "superior" to standard, just different.
As for Ancient Mediterranean ... utterly bland
Totally disagree. The balance in AM is fantastic, the convoy action is great, and the dichotomy of whether to build armies or fleets is great too. It is an extremely well-balanced game. Possibly too much so, as a little imbalance makes things interesting. One of my favorites.
I think adding 2-3 northern powers.
Then see Ancient World. It's AM w just like you describe. Great variant. Want to run one?
I think in that respect Hundred got it right.
Played this one too, and I dont agree. I rather found Hundred a bit boring. If ppl play optimally, then you should have a never-ending cycle. That circle of only 2 other players to work with, and always having to work w the lesser one just to reduce the greater one would be mind numbing how many times you'd have to do that to actually get a win, before everyone has to ultimately just give up and settle for a 3-way draw, which in itself isn't satisfying in a 3-player game. In a 7-player game the final 3-way that emerges is a minor success, since at least by that point you've defeated 4 other players.
Variants can be good. They just need to be well thought out, and have all the finishing touches in place.
-mike[Reply] |
| DC 218 SHIFT LEFT:GERMAN SOLO - FALL 1914 - FlapJack (Sep 14, 2009, 10:30 am) |
matt.
I thought Mike was completely out of line with his temper tantrum and resignation, nothing short of cheating justifies that and he that's not why he resigned...
I have to say in my 25 years of pbm, pbem and ftf play, I've been in a lot of games where players did what I thought were moves that were not in their best interest or even in the interest of stopping someone from winning and I have NEVER resigned due to other people refusing to do what I wanted or not pitching to help stop the leader...
That's part of the game--its DIPLOMACY, e.g. you suppose to convince people to do what you want, to leave because people won't do what you want is contrary to the spirit of the game...and I don't want to play with anyone who is going to resign because people won't do what they want...
and sorry, I think having my integrity question is a BIG thing and is worth arguing about...he basically accused me of throwing the game to France because I wouldn't help him...which was not true and when i denied he basically called me a liar...which i am in the game but not outside of the game...
i also agree i would play the game differently but then that's true of almost any variant I play for the first time (in fact often true of variants i've played several times, that's the mark of a good variant in my opinion...)
jack
On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Matt Kremer <matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu ([email]matthew.kremer(at)yale.edu[/email])> wrote:
Hey guys,
First off, congrats to Chris; at least with respect to me he played the perfect balance of helping me and then turning on me right before I would have been ready to fend him off. As for the rest of this game, I must admit that this was one of the most annoying games of which I have been a part. The initial Germany's tantrum was obviously a big part of this, but I also thought that other people didn't help the situation by blowing the situation up into a huge argument. And, looking back at the game as a whole, even though I don't approve of Mike's actions I actually agree with some of the things he was saying strategically, and I would play this variant very very differently were I to play it again.
Matt
Russia
Packrat wrote:
[quote:ef9c7e4ed5]
First, and foremost - congratulations to Chris Morse for his solo with 18 centers!!
Second - Thank you to ALL of you who stuck it out to the very end.
The final orders:
Austria:
F Aegean Sea - Constantinople
A Armenia Supports A Sevastopol
A Bulgaria Supports A Rumania
A Greece Hold
A Rumania Supports A Vienna - Budapest
A Sevastopol Supports A Rumania
A Trieste Supports A Tyrolia - Vienna
A Tyrolia - Vienna
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Gulf of Lyon
A Venice - Tyrolia
A Vienna - Budapest
France:
A Brest - Gascony
A Marseilles - Spain (*Dislodged*)
A Paris - Burgundy (*Fails*)
Germany:
A Bohemia Supports A Galicia
A Burgundy - Paris (*Fails*)
F English Channel Supports A Picardy - Brest
A Galicia, no move received
A Gascony - Marseilles
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Portugal
A Moscow Supports A Ukraine
A Munich Supports A Bohemia
F North Atlantic Ocean - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Picardy - Brest
A Silesia Supports A Bohemia
A Spain Supports A Gascony - Marseilles
A Ukraine Supports A Galicia
A Wales Hold
A Warsaw Supports A Galicia
Italy:
F Adriatic Sea Hold
F Ionian Sea - Tunis
F Naples Supports A Tuscany - Rome
A Tuscany - Rome
Turkey:
F Black Sea Supports A Sevastopol
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/quote:ef9c7e4ed5][Reply] |
| DC 218 SHIFT LEFT:GERMAN SOLO - FALL 1914 - MattTheLesser (Sep 14, 2009, 10:13 am) |
Hey guys,
First off, congrats to Chris; at least with respect to me he played the
perfect balance of helping me and then turning on me right before I
would have been ready to fend him off. As for the rest of this game, I
must admit that this was one of the most annoying games of which I have
been a part. The initial Germany's tantrum was obviously a big part of
this, but I also thought that other people didn't help the situation by
blowing the situation up into a huge argument. And, looking back at the
game as a whole, even though I don't approve of Mike's actions I
actually agree with some of the things he was saying strategically, and
I would play this variant very very differently were I to play it again.
Matt
Russia
Packrat wrote:
First, and foremost - congratulations to Chris Morse for his solo with
18 centers!!
Second - Thank you to ALL of you who stuck it out to the very end.
The final orders:
Austria:
F Aegean Sea - Constantinople
A Armenia Supports A Sevastopol
A Bulgaria Supports A Rumania
A Greece Hold
A Rumania Supports A Vienna - Budapest
A Sevastopol Supports A Rumania
A Trieste Supports A Tyrolia - Vienna
A Tyrolia - Vienna
F Tyrrhenian Sea - Gulf of Lyon
A Venice - Tyrolia
A Vienna - Budapest
France:
A Brest - Gascony
A Marseilles - Spain (*Dislodged*)
A Paris - Burgundy (*Fails*)
Germany:
A Bohemia Supports A Galicia
A Burgundy - Paris (*Fails*)
F English Channel Supports A Picardy - Brest
A Galicia, no move received
A Gascony - Marseilles
F Mid-Atlantic Ocean - Portugal
A Moscow Supports A Ukraine
A Munich Supports A Bohemia
F North Atlantic Ocean - Mid-Atlantic Ocean
A Picardy - Brest
A Silesia Supports A Bohemia
A Spain Supports A Gascony - Marseilles
A Ukraine Supports A Galicia
A Wales Hold
A Warsaw Supports A Galicia
Italy:
F Adriatic Sea Hold
F Ionian Sea - Tunis
F Naples Supports A Tuscany - Rome
A Tuscany - Rome
Turkey:
F Black Sea Supports A Sevastopol
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Reply] |
| Unknown - charlesf (Sep 14, 2009, 8:22 am) |
IMO, Stephen Agar was right in saying: "I have no hesitation in saying that most variants are crap." in his "A Call to Arms against Crap Variant. Though "unpolished" might be a more apt term.
I've always admired 1900 and Ambition&Empire. Those are my favourite variants other than my own.
For one, I consider 1900 superior to Standard Diplomacy (and many familiar with both do agree). And Ambition & Empire introduced the Diplomatic Points mechanism, which brings so much extra nuance to the table, if you ask me. Got a few reservations about some aspects of Amibition & Empire's current version, but nonetheless I hugely admire this design.
An honourable mention would go to Diplomacy Royale. I find the concept incredibly interesting.
I quite like a number of others, but not really to the extent that I'd be dying to play 'em.
As for Ancient Mediterranean, well, I remember playing in one game years ago. I found it utterly bland and really should have known better than to join.
I think the basic circular arrangement of five powers is a problem. I think adding 2-3 northern powers. Say the Celts/Gauls,. Germans and Sarmatians would spice things up a whole lot.
Short of such a redesign, I think Ancient Mediterranean's victory conditions ought to be significantly lowered. The 50%+1 thingie doesn't make for a compelling game, imo, with so few powers.
I think in that respect Hundred got it right. A low victory condition can make even a three-player variant work. At least if you have three good players, who are up to a permanent rebalancing effort.[Reply] |
| DC 218 SL - German EOG - camorse22 (Sep 14, 2009, 12:57 am) |
Hi Gents,
Thanks for the nice words of congratulation. It was a fun game, a challenging game, and given the level of competition I can't help feeling some pride of accomplishment. It has been a verrrrry long time since I took a solo in a non-gunboat game. Funny thing is, that other time was also a case where I was an early substitute, so you could say I'm still something of a virgin in that regard since I've managed the feat in a full game.
I joined this game in Summer 1904. Germany had 7 SC but it wasn't clear how or if I was going to get any of my units home. There was a big logjam in Austria, with four countries (A, E, G, R) all trying to push through the region. France was already home and Turkey had two units on his own doorstep. What's more, France had two of my German home SC, and England was about to be eliminated. So I guess without realizing it, I took up right where the previous Germans had left off and started telling all the other players that we had to stop screwing around RIGHT NOW or France was going to run away with the game.
First order of business was to figure out a way to get Austria, England, Russia and I untangled and into our respective home centers. Graham (Austria), Steve C (England) and Matt (Russia) all expressed cautious support for mutual cooperation in the center of the board, but it still required a great deal of convincing and cajoling to forge an agreement. I also invested effort in building a good relationship with Andy (Italy) because in the absence of England he was the only other one who could help directly against France.
I think in the end it wasn't my charm or cleverness that won out, but rather plain old doggedness. From what I was hearing there wasn't much writing going on up to that point. Really? I can remedy that! I talked a lot. To everybody. I just checked my email folder for this game, and in the first 3 seasons (F04, W04, S04) I wrote 51 different messages! Almost all of those were working with A, I and R, trying to set up a grand alliance where G and I would fight France and R and T would fight Turkey.
Of course, none of this would keep from talking to Turkey and France, too. Jack (Turkey) wasn't very interested, though, and since we had nothing to coordinate, it was no big deal to me. The conversation with Stephen Worthy (France), on the other hand, was both productive and fun. I knew Stephen from a few years back when he GM'd a gunboat variant called Stab! which I loved (and won). I knew that if I were in his shoes, I'd be trying to eliminate Germany. England was clearly no threat, so if Germany could be neutralized, the whole West would be a French playground. The first very key "win" for me was convincing Austria to support me into Munich against the French attempt to bounce me there in Spring '05. Without that support, I never would have gotten that first army home and the whole game would have been different. Actually, it is fortunate for everyone that France did not take Munich in Fall '04. He could have had it unopposed, but I suspect he didn't because he didn't want to knock Austria down to 1 SC which would have been the result. Or maybe he thought Austria would bounce him? I don't know, but I'm thinking it must be a big "What if?" in Stephen's mind.
The central madness did untangle pretty quickly, even though we suffered a bit of a glitch in the first season when Russia didn't quite trust us. That cost England his last dot, which was probably a blessing in disguise. He really wasn't going anywhere. The next critical bit was convincing Italy to stab France by taking Brest. This was SUCH an important move. France was the only country able to build at this point, had the English Isles sitting there completely unprotected, and was thinking he had two units ready to take Munich and block Germany from getting home.
Once Italy took Brest, it was easy for me to arrange "peace" with France. I didn't need to fight him. All I needed to do was claim my homeland. We arranged spheres of influence that gave me Germany, Holland, and Scandinavia (assuming I could get there before Russia). The next couple of years saw me growing at home and staying friendly with both Italy and France as they fought each other. My fleet that started in Smyrna passed through the Med, claimed Spain with the blessing of both F and I, and then moved out to MAO.
Then came the moment of truth. It wasn't an easy decision, at all, since I was getting along great with both guys. After waffling a bit, I chose Italy as the ally who was most likely to be of benefit to Germany long-term.
Although I was working closely with Italy, I really saw Austria as my main long-term ally. He was growing quickly, too, taking his own SC and most of the Balkans. He and Russia were nominally working together, though it seemed to me that when he took Rumania from Russia instead of Bulgaria, he was pushing Russia's buttons a little bit. I should note that in 1905 Steve Lytton took over for Graham. This was a shock for me, since Graham had given no hints that he was leaving and seemed to have become very involved in the game. I was very pleased, of course, when Steve said he would be following Graham's instructions to work with Germany. Nevertheless, I was clear that Steve was more, um, forceful? Aggressive? We got along fine, though it should be noted we never actually worked together beyond my supporting his army in Sevastopol for a few turns late in the game.
Russia and I were sort-of allies. We talked about his teaming with Austria against Turkey, and the two of us keeping an eye on Austria to make sure he didn't grow too quickly. But Matt didn't talk very much, and after a couple instances of sitting on my messages and not answering until AFTER the results were posted, I grew wary. It became clear eventually that he thought Scandinavia belonged to Russia. When he bypassed a build in Sevastopol to build a fleet in St. Pete, I knew we were destined to fight sooner rather than later.
France was putting up a good fight, but I figured that Italy and I had him licked. I'd just built 3 new units. Austria had some spare units, too, so I talked to him about taking on Russia. He hedged, but I figured if I made the first move he'd join in, so I backed my fleet off France and threw a 5 units at Scandinavia and Warsaw. Unfortunately, two things happened to spoil my timing. One, France chose that moment to push back, and two, Austria stabbed Italy. This meant no more Italian pressure on France, so no way I could both attack Russia and keep France out of London.
Time to reevaluate and renegotiate. I ceded London and Liverpool to France, and loaned him an army so he could take Marseilles back from Italy. I concentrated on Russia, forcing my way into Sweden in '08, then in '09 I took Warsaw (with Austria's help) and made a lucky guess that delivered St. Pete. Russia was essentially finished at this point, although it would be a couple of years before I could finally spare the units to eliminate that last pesky fleet in Norway.
It was at this point that I started actively thinking about the possibility of a solo. As I mentioned, it has been a long time between solos for me. I felt a bit of an obligation to my partner Austria, and I had been dutifully voting for the AG draw, but at some point I decided the "right" thing to do was to go for the win. I figured Austria would have if he had the chance. A couple of seasons earlier I had thought Austria had a good chance to solo, himself, but Italy managed to fall back remarkably quickly and put up a heck of defense. Because of that, Stephen could never free up the one more fleet he needed to break Turkey. He was pretty much stalemated. I counted dots and realized that I didn't need any more dots in the east. If I could solo without stabbing my ally, I thought that was something my conscience could live with.
All I had to do was break France. I think I surprised myself and the other players at how quickly that happened. My strength advantage made an eventual victory likely, but I was expecting it was one of those things where I'd have to probe and probe until I finally got lucky and Stephen guessed wrong. Instead, I was fortunate early and managed to slip an army into Gascony. From that point, I knew I had it.
Diplomatically, I was really expecting a "Stop Germany" movement to develop sooner. The late push forward into Galicia/Bohemia/Ukraine was never actually a stab for dots at all. I was a preemptive defensive move against such a movement, just in case. As it turned out, it was a good strategic move, as it incited Austria to move his army out of Piedmont and thus leave Marseilles undefended in the last season, giving me my 18th dot a year earlier than expected. If that hadn't happened, I probably would have played it safer and convoyed the army over from Wales in order to take Brest and Paris.
Many thanks to all players. I really, really enjoyed the game, and I say that not just because I won. Some individualize comments:
Stephen (France) - It is a measure of my very high esteem for you and your abilities that I always considered you the biggest threat. The fact that I knew your gunboat resume was so impressive was one of the biggest reasons why I knew I had to get everyone talking again. In a quiet world, Stephen is the king. Sorry for times when it was necessary for me to lie to you, and thanks for your implied forgiveness in your closing remarks.
Andy (Italy) - Great fun to play in a game with you after having enjoyed having you as a GM. I thought we worked really well together and I feel we have complementary styles and attitudes towards the game. It would have been interesting to see how the game would have played out if Austria hadn't stabbed you when he did. If he and I had finished off Russia while you and I finished France, it might have settled into a nice three-way. Or, just maybe, you and I would have tackled Austria together. Could have been interesting.
Stephen (Austria) - Enjoyed meeting you, or meeting you again, perhaps? I don't remember the game, but you were already in my address book. Could have been another game where one of us was a replacement. Anyway, your reputation also precedes you. Great to have you on my side, but I was always a bit nervous about it, I admit. You were clearly watching me closely, concerned that I might get overambitious. Ironically, I think it was that attitude in part that helped me decide to make the solo attempt. I understand why you didn't tell me about the stab on Italy, but it would have been interesting if you had tried to convince me to go along with it instead of surprising me and thus not being there at first when I needed you in Russia. It made me a little more independent from that point on. Very interested to hear your thoughts on the game. Did you feel hamstrung by Graham's initial instructions to work with me? Was that all that kept me from feeling the knife in my back? And what about that comment that I had "established a pattern?" That one puzzled me.
Matt (Russia) - I never really thought you were that involved with the game. You worked with us for a while but didn't show much enthusiasm for our grand alliance. For me, when forced to choose, it was much easier to stay with the guys who wrote me often and responded promptly. That wasn't you in this game. Maybe next time?
Jack (Turkey) - You pretty much said it all in your EOG, which was that you didn't say much of anything in the game. That would have bothered me if I'd needed to make plans with you, but as it was, you did your "job" as a thorn in the Russian and Austrian sides without requiring any maintenance from Germany.
Finally, to Scott, The Packrat, our illustrious GM. I very much enjoyed interacting with you from a safe vantagepoint. You did a great job managing the game, from my POV. You cracked the whip when it needed cracking, which I appreciate. You were quick with the results and to answer any questions, which is very important to me because it seems I'm always pestering my GM's about something. Thanks very much and I shall certainly seek out your games in the future. I might even play with you again. The scars are mostly healed from the last time, I think. :-/
Cheers,
Chris[Reply] |
| DC-224 Slaughter Of Retreat-Time - Early Winter 10... - former.trout (Sep 14, 2009, 12:17 am) |
Heya folks,
All the retreats did come in early, so we'll do the Autumn phase here on Sunday night. Also, it was pointed out to me that I slightly messed up the Ogres orders. Of COURSE Mike orders Shining Stream to Krikkit... My bad, and my apologies. The corrected Fall map is attached with this turn.
As far as retreats go, the Rogues side-stepped to Necro, the Archers fell back to Endor and Starkadh while the Faeries switched it up to Port Ghaast. Then Mark gave his fleet in Churning the rest of the game off...
Which takes us into a game-changer of a Winter turn. Deadline for Winter 10 adjustments will be set for Tuesday, Sept. 15th (11:59 PM GMT). Should be a doozy...
Cheers all! Just let me know if you spot any further GM errors.
Squinty-Eyed Trout
Retreat orders for Fall of 10. (DC 224 10 EW)
Archers: A Fantastica - Endor.
Archers: A Gwynir - Starkadh.
Faeries: A Myth Drannor - Port Ghaast.
Faeries: disband F Churning Reach.
Rogues: F Uhl Belk - Necronomicon.
Unit locations:
Archers: F Loxley, A Duloc, A Myth Drannor, A Endor, A Groves Of Academe, A
Westmark, F Drynwyn, A Starkadh, F Cliffs Of Insanity.
Dwarves: A Mt Nimro, A Carpantha, F Great Glacier, A Dragon Coast, A
Diamond Mines, F Zeboims Deep, F Churning Reach.
Elves: A Waterdeep, F Adder, F River Of Dawn.
Faeries: F Llyr, A Kingdom Of Hearts, F Land Of Sweets, A River Saeren, A
Strawberry Fields, A Port Ghaast, F East Mirianic Ocean, F North
Mirianic Ocean.
Knights: A Paras Derval, A Brennin, A Arborlon, A Grimpen Ward, F Cathal, A
Shady Vale, F Crystal Lake.
Ogres: A Lubrick, F Fjord, A Krikkit, A Two Towers, A The Old Gristmill,
A Hoarluk, A Thirsty Desert, A The Wilderland, A Nowwhat, A
Silvanesti, A Caverns Of The Snow Witch, A Venatori Umbrarum, F
Thunderhead, F Roaring Rapids.
Pirates: A Mordor, A Rohan, F Lindon, A Fantastica, F Land Ho, A Traverse
Town, F Slightly Gulch, F Rivendell, A Critter Country, F Restless
Waters, F Gulf of Lhun.
Rogues: A Anvard, F Archenland, F Troldhaugen, A Gwynir, F The Julianthes,
A Spirit Pond, F Aslan, A Dancing Lawn, F Walk Of Clouds, A
Palmaris, F Timber Lands, F Necronomicon, F Mist Marsh, F West
Mirianic Ocean.
Trolls: A Undermountain, F Newa River, F Everglot, F Skellington, F
Enchanted Isles, F Never Never Land, A Cave Of Ordeals, A Sable's
Swamp, A Daniloth, A Tymwyvenne, A Ancient Necropolis, F
Thon-Thalas, F High Seas, F The Maw, F East Sea Of Shadows.
Undead: A Skullcap, F Terabithia, F Istar, F Uhl Belk, F Savage Sea.
Wizards: F Baldurs Gate, A Candlekeep, A Yuirwood, F Rift Canyon, F Razors
Edge.
Ownership of supply centers:
Archers: Loxley, Prydain, Duloc, Avalon, Ivory Tower, Myth Drannor.
Dwarves: Mt Nimro, Carpantha, Great Glacier, Zhentil Keep.
Elves: Garthim, Waterdeep, Faerun, City Of Splendors.
Faeries: Llyr, Vinyaya, Oz, Ella, Kingdom Of Hearts, Spiral Castle, Land Of
Sweets, Gurgi, Gumdrop Isle.
Knights: Gu'Tanoth, Paras Derval, Brennin, Wing Hove, Arborlon, Grimpen
Ward, Cathal, Icereach.
Ogres: Gelfling, Prekkandorran Heights, Knockshegowna, Lubrick, Auryn,
Horborixen, Nehwon, Lankhmar, Traal, Magrathea, Fjord, Fafhrd,
Whoville, Devils Canyon, Forbidden City, Krikkit, Two Towers, The
Old Gristmill.
Pirates: Mordor, Rohan, Lindon, Fantastica, Riku, The Neverwood, Pans
Labyrinth, Land Ho, Traverse Town, Slightly Gulch, Neverpeak
Mountain.
Rogues: Anvard, Tumnus, Grissel, To-Gai-Ru, Grimheim, The Silver City,
Ashan, Archenland, Telmar, Troldhaugen, Orboros, Dargaard Keep,
Corona, Gwynir, Sleepy Hollow, Dimmsdale, The Julianthes, Spirit
Pond.
Trolls: Undermountain, Hundred Acre Wood, Khemri, Newa River, Tarsis,
Ergoth, Krynn, Sorrow's End, Niflheim, Kahvi, Everglot,
Skellington, Grendel, Cyriss, Ansalon, Enchanted Isles, Never
Never Land.
Undead: Gollerus, Skullcap, Tuatha, Caer, Terabithia.
Wizards: Baldurs Gate, Candlekeep.
Archers: 6 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 9 Units: Removes 3 units.
Barbarians: 0 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
Centaurs: 0 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
Dwarves: 4 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 7 Units: Removes 3 units.
Elves: 4 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 3 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Faeries: 9 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 8 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Gnomes: 0 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
Hobbits: 0 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
Knights: 8 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 7 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Leprechauns: 0 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
Magicians: 0 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
Nomads: 0 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
Ogres: 18 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 14 Units: Builds 4 units.
Pirates: 11 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 11 Units: Builds 0 units.
Rogues: 18 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 14 Units: Builds 4 units.
Samurai: 0 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
Trolls: 17 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 15 Units: Builds 2 units.
Undead: 5 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 5 Units: Builds 0 units.
Wizards: 2 Supply centers ( 0 blocked), 5 Units: Removes 3 units.
NEXT DEADLINE: WINTER 10 ADJUSTMENTS DUE TUESDAY, SEPT. 15TH (11:59 PM GMT)!![Reply] |
| dc267 tomorrow - MattTheLesser (Sep 13, 2009, 9:44 pm) |
You all know the deal. 9 pm eastern for Winter 2012.
Matt[Reply] |
| DC 260: Deadline reminder - AceRimmer (Sep 13, 2009, 8:11 pm) |
Deadline tomorrow, gents.
Igeekfantasybaseball[Reply] |
| DC-272 24 Hour Warning - zeclient (Sep 13, 2009, 2:37 pm) |
Let's not! lol
Nick
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:51:10 -0700
From: cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com
Subject: DC-272 24 Hour Warning
To: chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; kielmarch(at)hotmail.com; Brutus(at)wbhsi.net; zeclient(at)hotmail.com; ndeily(at)yahoo.com; dc272(at)diplomaticcorp.com; cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com; aislattery(at)aol.com; mdemagogue(at)gmail.com; maxatrest(at)yahoo.co.uk
I'm still missing two sets... Let's avoid our first NMR, shall we?
Wolf
I'm a Firefly fan and proud! Read my fiction:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1369632/
__________________________________________________
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| DC-272 24 Hour Warning - TheWhiteWolf (Sep 13, 2009, 12:51 pm) |
I'm still missing two sets... Let's avoid our first NMR, shall we?
Wolf
I'm a Firefly fan and proud! Read my fiction:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1369632/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com[Reply] |
| DC-272 24 Hour Warning (dc272) zeclient Sep 13, 02:37 pm |
Let's not! lol
Nick
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:51:10 -0700
From: cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com
Subject: DC-272 24 Hour Warning
To: chaosonejoe(at)yahoo.com; kielmarch(at)hotmail.com; Brutus(at)wbhsi.net; zeclient(at)hotmail.com; ndeily(at)yahoo.com; dc272(at)diplomaticcorp.com; cloudhurler77(at)yahoo.com; aislattery(at)aol.com; mdemagogue(at)gmail.com; maxatrest(at)yahoo.co.uk
I'm still missing two sets... Let's avoid our first NMR, shall we?
Wolf
I'm a Firefly fan and proud! Read my fiction:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1369632/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.comUn avatar à votre image ? Créez votre mini-moi ! |
