I've already thanked and congratulated everyone, so here are my cheap seat comments.

Unlike the real Shogun Oda, I usually play a conservative, defensive game. After having a chance to look at the map and lay out my initial strategy, I felt Oda's positioning would suit my play style well. In short, it affords quick initial growth along a pretty obvious path, providing great depth defensively. Unfortunately for me, my style of play and the Oda game characteristics combined to leave me in a great "also ran" position at the end of the game. Even less aggressive than usual, I reviewed the troops during parade and kept out of action until way too late.

I agree with the probable success of a coastline-running strategy, particularly for Asakura and Oda. Sadly for the two of us this time around, Asakura and Oda had much early stage difficulty in putting together a negotiated deal that was fully trusted by both parties making it all but impossible to exploit our natural advantage in access to key ocean territories.

This was an unbelievably fast match. Partially Oda's fault I'm afraid, for not seizing an earlier opportunity to harass or more the Mori in some small way. But with only a lone fleet available in the south--Oda's units being otherwise tied-up on the Takeda front--I'm not sure it would have made much of a difference in the end.

Regardless, I think you can have fun with this one either as a 12 or 15 sc game, but I'll bet they are each quite distinct in their play. I'll look forward to a 15 sc game some day to compare. I believe it'll play very differently. I see the 12 sc game as more of a sprint, than a marathon, requiring quickly established alliances and an aggressive offensive strategy. I think it makes for a fast, challenging, but very "tactical" game. No grand, world domination strategies needed and stabs probably should, as was pointed out, happen more quickly as a player may only have to fully engage two opponents to gather up the needed number. For the folks in the north and south ends of the map, this basically means screw your neighbor quickly and call it a victory. While the 15 sc game only requires a few additional sc's, it definitely will mean moving deeper into enemy territory and engaging more players. In our match, once Mori had realized successful negotiations with Asakura and Oda, he never really had to worry about the rest of the map.

You know, if Hojo had actually swung those ships around Oda (as promised but discarded in an earlier, failed stab attempt) and gotten mixed up down there, things may have turned out differently...

Take care!

Bruce









----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Moore <agenbite.lee(at)gmail.com>
To: B H <nairenvorbeck(at)yahoo.com>
Cc: Former Trout <former.trout(at)gmail.com>; DC123(at)diplomaticcorp.com; Bruce Quinn <coebq(at)yahoo.com>; Felix Kamchung <felixkamchung(at)mac.com>; Jacob Traeger <jacob.traeger(at)student.adelaide.edu.au>; Joshua Gottesman <joshua.gottesman(at)gmail.com>; Nathan Deily <ndeily(at)yahoo.com>; Patrick Pottorff <happyguy99993(at)yahoo.com>; Samuel Smith <samuelsmithf(at)yahoo.com>; Steve Lytton <stevelytton(at)hotmail.com>; List ACD-Chat <acd-chat(at)yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2007 2:00:01 AM
Subject: Re: DC123 Shade Of The Bonsai - Fall 1575 - Swans - MORI SOLO!!

The new Shogun greets his old enemies.

First off, I just wanted to say thanks to all the players for making my first online game a lot of fun and to Trout for being a great GM.

Concerning the game, I wasn't sure how quickly these are supposed to go on, since this was my first. How long was this game expected to last?

Here's my try at an EOG: Although I see B H's point about it being easier to control one side of the sea and then just move up and down the coast. What I'm skeptical about, is whether you can get an alliance in which you won't get stabbed. When starting the game, Chosokabe proposed this, and I was immediately suspicious that he was trying to set me up for a stab. The problem is that Japan is just so narrow that it is almost impossible to split the island down the middle and still have enough strategic depth to weather a stab and still have something to fall back on. From the beginning. I thought the best way to get the 12 SC's was to take on either my two island opponents and stay out of what I saw as a separate sphere to the northeast. I guess, if there was a good balance between Chosokabe and Shimazu, Mori could try and take on Asakura or Oda, but the only trouble is that, if the balance didn't hold, either Shimazu or Chosokabe would end up surrounding Mori on two-sides, and it would be so tempting to try and swallow him up.

As far as the 12 or 15 thing is concerned, I still think, although it didn't happen this time, a 12 SC victory would be better for those powers in the center of the main island. Even if it had been 15 SC's to solo, I had 13 and no one to attack me on 3 sides. I would just throw everything I had up north, and I think I would have still gotten 15. And if everyone hadn't thrown everything at Takeda, he would have been able to do the same thing sooner. It demonstrates the problem that I was talking about earlier. For the six players on either end, the way to win this variant is to dominate their end. For the 2 middle players, the moving-up-the-coast strategy might work better, and I think that the 12 SC variant gives them a better chance, even if their chances still aren't as good as the end players.

By the way, the misorders were accidental, not strategic.

Anyways, I really enjoyed the game, and would definitely be up for playing this variant in the future.

From the new Bakufu,
Mori




On Nov 29, 2007 8:01 AM, B H < nairenvorbeck(at)yahoo.com ([email]nairenvorbeck(at)yahoo.com[/email])> wrote:

I have a short EOG of my own as an observer. Just notes really...

Since the most recent map revision, I have now seen games played at the 12 and 15 SC count victory conditions, and as it seems this one ended prematurely, that 15 (or perhaps even higher?) is the correct number. The lower SC victory count was created with two reasons in mind, one of which it does not appear to accomplish at all.

The first was to create greater chances of Oda and Asakura victory - those two in the middle that start in a minefield of open SCs would be able to race to an early solo if the outside "triangles" of C/M/S and T/U/H did not intervene.

The second reason was historical accuracy. Oda Nobunaga carved out an area roughly equivalent to 12 SCs when he earned the title of Shogun.

Anywho, I imagine the Takeda are a bit annoyed at the variant design right now, and perhaps rightly so at the 12 SC victory condition. Sengoku is designed to play MUCH faster than a game of Standard, which can last well over a year sometimes. But not this fast.

That said...

In the last four games of Sengoku, I have seen an interesting phenomenon that puzzles me a bit. Players have chosen the difficult path of operating on both the top and bottom of the map (geographical east and west, but for simplicity's sake, top and bottom). Takeda chose to polish off Uesugi in his entirety, and Hojo feels that his stab was premature. I would have stabbed even earlier perhaps, or not at all. But by operating on the top and bottom of the map, Takeda was vulnerable to the O/A coalition that stonewalled him, without placing them in the uncomfortable position of tripping over each other trying to attack him - each had ample Takeda targets on the top coast and the bottom coast.

My point is this, it's easiest to solo in Sengoku by mostly running up a coastline, whichever power you play, rather than trying to split your fleets on both sides of Japan.

As for Mori, his rise to power was astonishing. It seemed that he even misordered or neglected to order some of his units on multiple occasions. Tactic to appear non-threatening? Intentional timing to divert the attention to Takeda as Hojo claims? Maybe - regardless, his strike was extremely effective, and represents the first PBEM Mori solo that I'm aware of. (Mori players have soloed over a paper map in FTF before in earlier revisions).

Oda and Asakura played pretty much textbook - they did very well, but I don't think anyone in their position could have done well enough to deal with the extremely rapid rise of both Takeda and Mori. F1575 is one of the quickest endstates I've ever seen, draw resolutions included.

So we see the feature of Sengoku that annoys some people at work - it is entirely possible to do very well in your area, and have someone solo on the other side of the map just by doing a little bit better, even without coming into contact with each other.

Hope that doesn't turn anyone off to the variant, I enjoyed watching this one immensely, and hope you will play again sometime at whatever SC victory condition, 12 or 15. Congratulations to our new Mori shogun!

B!


Former Trout <former.trout(at)gmail.com ([email]former.trout(at)gmail.com[/email])> wrote:



[quote:cd1bafdc36]From the Iwamisudera Monogatari:

Learning is to a man as leaves and branches are for a tree, and can be said that he should simply not be without it.

The drums of war fall silent as the Shogun rises from the south and quells all opposition. With definity, the Mori eliminate the last Shimazu resistance and surge to 13 supply centers - propelling Lee to a clear solo victory. The Oda and Asakura make a few attempted moves to the south, but the Mori don't give an inch. Meanwhile, the Hojo despite all odds eke out a survival and the Takeda watch - knowing that one day the Mori defenses will slip...

However, that is not to be in this game. Congratulations to Lee for his fine solo victory. My thanks, also, to all players on the board - both surviving and eliminated. This is one of my favorite variants, and it was a true pleasure to watch this one unfold.

So - that wraps up DC-123, Shade Of The Bonsai. End-of-game statements are MORE than welcome. I know Benjamin GREATLY values any input you have into the layout of the board, the positioning of the pieces and and general thoughts you have about the development of the Sengoku variant.

Thanks for the fun game everyone. We'll see you on the next board.. =)

Trout


GAME NUMBER Shade Of The Bonsai A Sengoku Game Game Started: Thursday, August 30th



Current Turn: Fall 1575
GAME RESULT: MORI 13 CENTRE SOLO - YEAR 1575


The Honorable Players
Asakura Yoshikage: Joshua Gottesman joshua.gottesman(at)gmail.com ([email]joshua.gottesman(at)gmail.com[/email]) Chosokabe Motochika: Mike Sims mike(at)southwall.com ([email]mike(at)southwall.com[/email]) Hojo Ujimasu: Felix Kamchung felixkamchung(at)mac.com ([email]felixkamchung(at)mac.com[/email]) Mori Motonari: Samuel Smith agenbite.lee(at)gmail.com ([email]agenbite.lee(at)gmail.com[/email]) Oda Nobunaga: Bruce Quinn coebq(at)yahoo.com ([email]coebq(at)yahoo.com[/email]) Shimazu Yoshihisa: Jacob Traegar jacob.traeger(at)student.adelaide.edu.au ([email]jacob.traeger(at)student.adelaide.edu.au[/email]) Takeda Shingen: Nathan Deily ndeily(at)yahoo.com ([email]ndeily(at)yahoo.com[/email]) Uesugi Kenshin: Patrick Pottorff happyguy99993(at)yahoo.com ([email]happyguy99993(at)yahoo.com[/email])


Humble GM: Former Trout former.trout(at)gmail.com ([email]former.trout(at)gmail.com[/email]) Variant Info http://www.variantbank.org/results/rules/s/sengoku.htm

CURRENT SEASON:


FALL 1575 TAKEDA PRESS:
achieving nothing
our cowardly foes ignore
the true deadly threat


FALL 1575 HOJO PRESS:
DEATH IS NOT MY MIDDLE NAME!




FALL 1575 ORDERS:


ODA:
F Kii Straits to Tosa [BOUNCE with TOS 1:1] A Kii to Awa VOID A Totomi to Suruga OK A S. Shinano holds OK A Mino S A S. Shinano to hold OK A Hida S A S. Shinano to hold OK F Pacific Ocean to N. Pacific Ocean OK

SHIMAZU:
A Hyu Holds [DISBANDED by BUN 2:1] A Osu Holds [DISBANDED by HIG 2:1]

TAKEDA:
F Noto S A Echigo - Etchu [DISBANDED by ETC 3:2] F Toyama Bay S F Noto H OK F Hitachi - Mutsu [BOUNCE with NSJ 1:1] A Kazusa H OK A Shimosa - Sagami OK A Echigo - Etchu OK A Kai S A N. Shinano H OK A North Shinano H OK A Sagami - Musashi OK

ASAKURA:
A Echizen - Tango OK A Etchu - Noto OK A Hoki - Bingo [BOUNCE with IZU 1:1] A Kaga Supports A Etchu - Noto OK F North Sea of Japan - Mutsu [BOUNCE with HIT 1:1] F Sanin Coast - Iwami Coast OK F Wakasa Bay Supports A Etchu - Noto OK

HOJO:
HOLD ALL UNITS UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED
[GM NOTE: F IZU HOLDS] OK

MORI:
A from Izumo to Bingo [BOUNCE with HOK 1:1] A from Iwami to Aki OK A from Nagato to Iwami OK A from Chikuzen to Nagato OK F from East China Sea to higo OK A from Bungo attacks Hyuga Ok F from Hyuga Coast supports A from Bungo attacking Hyuga OK A from Higo attacks Osumi OK F from Satsuma supports A from Higo attaking Osumi OK [GM NOTE: A AWA UNORDERED - HOLDS] OK [GM NOTE: F TOSA UNORDERED - HOLDS] OK



EARLY WINTER 1575 RETREATS:
Shimazu A Hyga is Automatically Disbanded
Shimazu A Osumi is Automatically Disbanded
Takeda F Noto is Automatically Disbanded




------------------------------


ODA:
8 Supply Centers - Owa, Mik, Yat, Tot, Ise, Kii, Min, Ssh
5 Armies - Hid, Kii, Min, Sur, Ssh
2 Fleets - Npo, Kis


TAKEDA:
9 Supply Centers - Kai, Ecg, Mus, Koz, Nsh, Sag, Kaz, Hit, Mut
6 Armies - Kaz, Sag, Etc, Kai, Nsh, Mus
2 Fleets - Tob, Hit


ASAKURA:
7 Supply Centers - Ecz, Omi, Set, Ina, Yas, Biz, Not
4 Armies - Tng, Hok, Kag, Not
3 Fleets - Wab, Nsj, Iwc


HOJO:
1 Supply Center - Izu
0 Armies -
1 Fleet - Izu


MORI:
13 Supply Centers - Nag, Iwa, Bin, Chi, Izm, San, Iyo, Hiz, Tos, Sat, Bun, Hig, Osu
7 Armies - Awa, Izm, Osu, Hyu, Iwa, Aki, Nag
4 Fleets - Hyc, Sat, Tos, Hig


UESUGI - ELIMINATED 1572


CHOSOKABE - ELIMINATED 1573


SHIMAZU - ELIMINATED 1575

Benjamin T. Hester
"Have 'em call me, sir - I'll make this go away..."
www.geocities.com/nairenvorbeck/files
(Home of Sengoku and South American Supremacy maps,
Realpolitik files, and all sorts of good stuff)
DVWorkshop-subscribe(at)yahoogroups.com ([email]DVWorkshop-subscribe(at)yahoogroups.com[/email])
(The list dedicated to Diplomacy Variant Design)

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